Shinkyokushin vs Shito ryu for self defence ?

[Paul_D]

Who said anything about sport fighting? I'm talking about fighting period.

It does not matter if you are talking sport fighting or street fighting.. Willingly engaging in consensual violence (fighting) is not the same as self defence. Clearly here the boxer was the better fighter than the plasterer however it is the boxer who comes of worse. Why? Because the plaster does not attempt to fight him.

Boxer has to quit sport after Burnley street attack - Burnley Express

Although this is long at an hour, it is an excellent explanation of the similarities and differences between martial arts, fighting and self define, which are commonly mistaken as the same thing.

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy
"Many martial arts instructors see martial arts, fighting and self-protection as being one and the same with all distinctions between them being completely lost. Personally I think this lack of clarity to be highly problematic and it is arguably the biggest problem we face today."

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear lord...

Well we're not talking about your system are we? We're talking about Karate. Karate exponents who don't spar, or are trained via point fighting can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

My system is an example of you, yet again, not having the first clue about the larger picture. The fact that you can't follow a simple argumentative structure is honestly rather saddening for me.

Uh yeah. The only way you're going to learn how to properly punch and kick people is to actually punch and kick people. The only way to learn how to get kicked and punched by people is to get punched and kicked by people. Grappling is no different. The only way you can learn how to throw or choke someone, or to converse take throws and chokes from someone is to actually experience it. Now you can experience that on the concrete and the hospital, or you can experience it in the relative safety of the gym.

Well, that's a whole mess of wrong. You do know that there are many other ways of doing all that, yeah? Including far more reliable ones? Nah…

I mean, do you seriously believe someone in Judo (for example) who has never participated in live sparring could beat someone who does live sparring at every practice? I've actually seen this happen, and its not pretty. The practitioner who wasn't sparring constantly got steamrolled.

What makes you think that's got anything to do with the context of the thread itself?

LoL! Okay bud.

You honestly have no idea what my "full contact" is like… which is fine. But the point is that your context is not the one the thread is about… and yours is quite removed from mine as well.

Which is why almost none of the grappling arts practice kata right? Wrestling, Bjj, and Sombo don't practice kata. On the other hand, every single grappling system does a form of live sparring and they do that form of live sparring all the time.

That includes Judo.

Dude… seriously, stop with making comments like that. All you do is show just how little you really know. I mean… do you want me to list all the kata in Judo? There's quite a few, you know… the Nage no Kata… Katame no Kata… Ju no Kata… Itsutsu no Kata… Koshiki no Kata… Kime no Kata… Goshin no Kata…

How about the 123 kata of Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu (Jujutsu)? The 180+ of Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu? All the methods of Takenouchi Ryu? All of the hundreds of other Jujutsu systems that have, and do exist? You know… the reasons you have your little game version at all?

That was one heck of a dodge. Bravo!

Well, when you miss everything that's explained, and flatly refuse to listen when corrected, what's the point in giving you actual answers? It might be noted, though, that I did actually answer you… all it takes is for you to actually understand what you were told.

Yeah, and the example I used can be applied to the thread about Kyokushin and Shito Ryu. In fact I pointed out exactly how my example applies to Kyokushin in my response.

Er… huh? Dude… read. You said that full contact was good because you get used to be ing "socked in the head"… I pointed out that Kyokushin's rules actually prohibit that… and you say you were addressing Kyokushin itself at the time?

No.

Because if it was full contact the OP would have mentioned it in his post.

So… you're making an assumption based on a lack of words (which might be due to a lack of information on the OP's part, you know…)?

And again the point is that getting punched and kicked full blast is more beneficial in learning how to take and give blows than doing anything else.

No, it's really not. Again, you have me do that, and all you learn is how long it takes you to get back up again.

Not as well as taking blows to the body.

First demonstrate to me that you know these methods, then demonstrate to me that you have any clue as to how to quantifiably assess that statement.

Nope.

See, now, this is the biggest issue with your posts. You make a statement, it is countered with multiple examples of how wrong your idea is, by contradicting your comment directly, and you are asked if you would reconsider your position. You then respond with this.

You have no interest in learning. You just want to argue, despite it coming from a deep well of ignorance.

Yet it was still a violation. I never said it was on the same scale, simply that it was a violation and I had to deal with that violation or suffer the consequences. I certainly wasn't going to get raped, but I could have very easily been killed or put into a vegetative state considering that the assailant was armed with a hammer.

I heartily recommend you look into what words mean in context, then.

Yeah, that response doesn't coincide with what you quoted.

Your denial of anything you're presented with is why I answered as I did. For the record, though, it was largely centred around your attributing certain causes and effects, the effects of the strikes, and what "would have helped her".

Well no one asked for your opinion. I was simply pointing out that they're there.

Ah… so only you are allowed to point out the issues with a systems flawed and limited approach? Cool…

Saying that karate is lacking ground grappling isn't a blanket statement.

Yeah… it really is. It's kinda the definition of it, actually.

Further, I have yet to encounter a a in school that doesn't encourage cross training. I've encountered plenty of karate schools that discouraged it.

And do you understand the reasons, when that's the case?

Well I'd love to see some examples of throws and takedowns from your system for comparison purposes.

What would that prove? Seeing my throws and takedowns wouldn't make the ones in that video any better, you know…

It's the first article that was posted about the incident. Subsequent articles had significant changes in an attempt to make the victim look like she held her own more. I have no idea why the account was changed, but it was changed nonetheless.

As for what works in the real world; We have already discussed examples of women using ground grappling to save themselves from assailants. If this young woman had spent 15 years in Bjj, she would have been a black belt in the system. It's highly doubtful that a black belt in Bjj wouldn't be able to handle herself on the ground. Why? Because she would have had 15 years of grappling against men of varying sizes under her belt.

Really, you need to take more time reading what's written… the comment was about HOW things work in the real world… not WHAT works in the real world… the rest of this is pure supposition, and completely besides the point.

And yeah, actual grappling, not pretend kata/larping grappling.

Dude, you have no idea what kata is. Nor larping, I'd suggest.

Yeah, sure they did.

What you described above is nothing more than folklore, legends, and anecdotal evidence. When we look at documented history the exact opposite is the case. Numerous fighting exhibitions throughout the 20th century show us that exponents who spar constantly plaster those exponents who don't. In the modern age, we see this happen over and over and over again. I mean, would you honestly put someone who has only practiced kata against a boxer or MMA fighter and expect them to last more than 10 seconds before their face hits the canvas?

And that evidence is highly contextually dependent. So… who cares? Of course, change the context and your sparring guy could be in more serious trouble than your hypothetical…

For that matter, are there any Karate styles left today that don't practice free sparring?

Well, we have K-man's school, who don't engage in what you'd class as "free sparring"…

Okay, so which grappling style doesn't practice free sparring on a consistent basis? Feel free to list them.

Takenouchi Ryu, Asayama Ichiden Ryu, Sho Sho Ryu, Sosuishi Ryu, Sekiguchi Ryu, Hontai Yoshin Ryu… honestly, I can go on like that for days…

Semantics. When we say kata, we're talking kata. We're not talking about drills and Chris wasn't talking about drills.

Uchikomi for example is a drill, not a kata.

And I listed kata earlier… thing is… do you know what a kata is?

If you can't fight, how in the world are you going to be able to defend yourself?

The idea that you can defend yourself with zero or subpar fighting ability is complete nonsense.

Yet, people do it all the time… so, apparently, the world is doing it wrong.

Here's the thing. You've been told before, but I'm going to say it again… fighting is not self defence… additionally… actually, you know what? You're not going to get it. Just know that you're completely in the dark on this topic.

Evidence that people know how to fight without sparring.

And nothing anecdotal please.

How could any evidence given not be anecdotal?!?! Dude…

Interesting how 1000s of years of fighting history fell by the wayside as soon as western boxing was introduced to China.

Of course the same thing happened when Judo was introduced in Japan.

HA!!!!!!

You have no idea at all. I mean… Judo wasn't "introduced in Japan"… it was developed there… and no "fighting history" has fallen by the wayside… so… just…. no.