OP
- Thread Starter
- #61
Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..
-Palusut
-MT Moderator
Please, keep the conversation on topic..
-Palusut
-MT Moderator
Probationary Black Belts Crock or Not?
- Thread starter Guro Harold
- Start date
chris arena
Green Belt
I voted "NOT" a crock but really, it is up to the school.
I started training in 1994, trained hard twice a week in class, had a key to the gym, came in at least one or twice a week on my own to practice, (and clean the mats). Bought my teacher's "Silent Figher". put it in my garage and whacked on it most nights after dinner.
I got my black belt is 2001. Gee, If it was some of the arts out there I could have been a 3rd degree and, If I really dream could be a certified master in a mystical art that I learned from a hermit after passing a deadly test.....
I also got a brown belt from the professer in 2000 and my Lakan Isa from his son in 2002 and guess what. I still feel like a beginner as I keep finding more stuff to learn in this art!
My probation was that it took me that long to be at a point where my teacher felt that I was qualified. Yes, some of us have the physical tools and the raw talent to get there faster.. So, I look at my probation as "That point in time" that it takes the individual. It is not that you spend 3 years and "presto" you is a black belt, Or that you paid the money!
So, in closing, I look at this so called "Probationary Black Belt" as just that. You may have spent the time and money, can do the basics, look pretty in the forms, but can you really use it and have you proven to your instructor that you can now start to lead and not just follow!!!
Chris Arena
enthusiastic intermediate.
I started training in 1994, trained hard twice a week in class, had a key to the gym, came in at least one or twice a week on my own to practice, (and clean the mats). Bought my teacher's "Silent Figher". put it in my garage and whacked on it most nights after dinner.
I got my black belt is 2001. Gee, If it was some of the arts out there I could have been a 3rd degree and, If I really dream could be a certified master in a mystical art that I learned from a hermit after passing a deadly test.....
I also got a brown belt from the professer in 2000 and my Lakan Isa from his son in 2002 and guess what. I still feel like a beginner as I keep finding more stuff to learn in this art!
My probation was that it took me that long to be at a point where my teacher felt that I was qualified. Yes, some of us have the physical tools and the raw talent to get there faster.. So, I look at my probation as "That point in time" that it takes the individual. It is not that you spend 3 years and "presto" you is a black belt, Or that you paid the money!
So, in closing, I look at this so called "Probationary Black Belt" as just that. You may have spent the time and money, can do the basics, look pretty in the forms, but can you really use it and have you proven to your instructor that you can now start to lead and not just follow!!!
Chris Arena
enthusiastic intermediate.
Haze
Blue Belt
I'm thinking that the kyu ranks are probationary black belts. That is the time we are looking at the student and watching them grow til one day they have reached the level that we, as instructors require to award them the grade of BB.
The Prof. never directly discussed with me why he used probationary blackbelt but the impression that I got was that he could award this level to someone that tested for Black but didn't quite perform well enough for Lakan and that making them a probationary would hopefully encourage the student to continue training and have them come back again. I think it was a tool he used whenever he thought it the best option for a given persons situation.
I think sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.
We don't use probationary blackbelt for our Arnis or Kenpo program. Seeing the student on a regular basis over time we know that they are already operating at an advanced enough level to be placed on the blackbelt exam.
I can see in a seminar or camp situation where it may sometimes be more difficult in evaluating rank and that at times use of a probationary rank may have been useful for him.
I think sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't.
We don't use probationary blackbelt for our Arnis or Kenpo program. Seeing the student on a regular basis over time we know that they are already operating at an advanced enough level to be placed on the blackbelt exam.
I can see in a seminar or camp situation where it may sometimes be more difficult in evaluating rank and that at times use of a probationary rank may have been useful for him.
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I know I'm posting late, and in truth, I haven't read all of the responses, so I'm not up to date on the current flow of the conversation. With that I'll just answer the question of the post. I have always thought they were a crock. If you've earned the rank via testing and received the rank-It's yours. I do understand the sentiment behind probationary periods, but, If you know the material, you know it. If you earned it, you earned it.
14 Kempo
Grandmaster
Exactly ...
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
very little in the world is as motivating as promoting somebody to a position they need to prove they're worthy of.
Probationary grades give some a chance to complete the tasks without having to overcome the notion of having "failed" the first time through;
however the down side of that kind of promtion is that it can create the illusion that it's ok not to give it a testing your best shot... if a half-assed effort will yield a semi-positive result.
Personally, I prefer the all or nothing approach: you pass or fail. Then you'll have to face up to the choice of re-testing or walking away. Most people will re-test.
Morgan
Failure is part of life. It's not bad to learn about it early in a way which teaches you to get up, dust yourself off and try again. We're reading off the same page. I know. Just restating and emphasizing one of your excellent points.
Speaking only generally, as I clearly cannot address the ranking structure of another art from an informed position, I think Tellner last brief (couple of) post's put quite clearly one of the major appraoches to testing in the martial arts.
Of course, there is also the point of view that you only go in for a grading when you have already shown that your ability is now of a sufficient standard to hold that grade i.e. the proceedure is more a validation of your progress than a test to see if you can pass or fail.
Either way, a probationary grade sits a little uncomfortably. I can see that some feel them to have value and I respect their opinion but in a 'binary' poll I had to vote 'Crock'
.
Of course, there is also the point of view that you only go in for a grading when you have already shown that your ability is now of a sufficient standard to hold that grade i.e. the proceedure is more a validation of your progress than a test to see if you can pass or fail.
Either way, a probationary grade sits a little uncomfortably. I can see that some feel them to have value and I respect their opinion but in a 'binary' poll I had to vote 'Crock'
.I kinda have to agree. I've not read the entire thread, and I don't practice arnis...
But a lot depends on what you mean by a "black belt." If it's a sign that a particular person has achieved a certain level of skill, knowledge, and proficiency in a particular martial art, then they really don't make much sense. You either have the skills & knowledge & proficiency, or you don't. After all, on Sunday morning after passing the test on Saturday, a person doesn't really know anything that they didn't Saturday... except that they could meet the standards under the pressure of testing. What happens to a "probationary black belt" at the end of the probation period if they don't succeed? They don't lose knowledge; you can't take that away. You can strip a signal of the rank, like a belt or certificate, from them -- but they still either know their stuff or they don't.
But -- what if a black belt means teaching license? Or ranking within the organizational structure? Then, if after a probationary period, they haven't demonstrated that they can successfuly instruct or fulfill their duties -- sure, you can take them out of the job. Pull the "INSTRUCTOR" tab off their uniform... whatever. Their knowledge remains, of course. But they couldn't cut the job. That's a rank more like military rank than a knowledge rank...
I think that's part of the confusion in martial arts today. People are trying to use two ranking systems, with different criteria, at the same time for the same people. On the one hand, they're using rank like academic degrees; a yellow belt is a kindergarden diploma, a 1st degree black belt is maybe high school, and a 4th or 8th is like a doctorate. (Higher ranks there are like being department chairs, or being a court recognized expert.) On the other hand, they're using rank like a military or other, similar organizational structure. A white belt is a recruit private/FNG, a green belt is maybe a lance corporal or team leader, a black belt is like a platoon leader or program manager or similar mid-level manager, and higher black belts move up the tier to vice presidents or CEOs. But you can't really use the same systems for different purposes... You can't block a kick with an armbar, but I think that's almost exactly what some people are doing! They're expecting a black belt to simultaneously recognize knowledge and skill AND be organization status...
LawDog
Master Black Belt
I agree with the first part with tellners post #71.
I also believe that when someone gets out on the floor and puts it all on the line they won't"fail" just not pass. They just need to practice a little longer and harder then try again.
Failure is when you don't try again.
:ultracool
I also believe that when someone gets out on the floor and puts it all on the line they won't"fail" just not pass. They just need to practice a little longer and harder then try again.
Failure is when you don't try again.
:ultracool
Yeah, exactly what he said!
The best way to know as a student that you've done well is be tested and pass. No half measures or limp wristed messages.
Morgan
You're right, failure is a part of life as is success. Siometimes one has to fail because they simply are not up to the task at hand. More practice and perhaps some new bits of information or insights will help the person to be more sucess the next time.
All the way through this thread, I'm speaking for myself, not any system or instructor. If someone wishes to use a probationary ranking I will not oppose the idea; I simply believe that it is better to have a definate outcome - pass or fail.
Sincerely,
Morgan
OP
- Thread Starter
- #78
Wow, almost 3/4 of the people who voted believed that the Probationary Black Belt was a Crock. What about now?
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