Probationary Black Belts Crock or Not?

[arnisador]

Yeah, some people specialized in sitting on the sidelining jawing. Others just plain couldn't go from the drills to application. (It took me a while, coming from karate.) I could go on and on...this is why Dan Anderson is such a great example. A well-known, high-ranking, experienced arnisador...who is always the hardest working "student" on the floor when someone else is teaching.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Do NOT get me started. My pet peeve are the loudmouthed high ranks who clearly could not fight their way out of a wet paper bag with two sticks!

:soapbox: :soapbox:

Chad,

I have the darnest time of trying to open up the plastic garbage bags, without ripping them.

Yet, I fully understand yours and everyones comments about how it appeared.

 

[MisterMike]

The probationary black belt tactics was used at a kenpo school I know of in Massachusetts run by some fat dough-boy with a fifth dan who keeps distorted pictures of me on his website. I'll leave out any names to remain tactful.

I voted crock. You either made it or you didn't. And here I thought it was something only used by deceiving little men with psychological issues looking for a few extra bucks to maintain their full time schools pumped up with false claims of child psychology proven children's curriculi.

Ahhh, I feel better.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

With doing a seminar tour this month I haven't had time to reply to this thread. I'm currently working on a post that addresses the issues of the probationary Black Belt in Modern Arnis and it's evolution in the art. I will say this:

We in the WMAA don't use probationary status for any of our ranking.

More to follow.


:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This is an ugly topic. What makes this so difficult is that MOST of the MABBs (Modern Arnis Black Belts) have not been around long enough to see the evolution of the art and its procedures.

Let’s start at the 1988 Michigan Summer Camp. At the end of the test ALL of the promotions were announced. Several people were called up before me for Lakan. They were announced “Name Probationary Lakan, you will wear the 3rd degree brown belt.” When I was called, I was promoted to my Lakan. After the test I asked Remy what belt do you want me to wear? He answered me by telling me to wear a Black Belt.

At the 1991 Buffalo Summer Camp, 4 people tested for their Lakans. All of them were 3rd browns. At the end of the test three were promoted to Lakan and one received his probationary Lakan.

Fast forward to the 1999 Florida winter camp Amy Antecki (one of my students) was recommended for her probationary Dayang. Remy thought she did so well that he promoted her to Dayang.

I want to be very specific in stating that these were the procedures while Remy was alive and well. What paths the organizations have chosen since Remy’s death are theirs to make. For those of us who have been around that long, they can verify these accounts. As I stated before, we in the WMAA don’t use probationary ranks. I have no problems with organizations that choose to use probationary ranks. Where I have a disagreement is when people make the statement that when you tested for Lakan or Dayang, it was automatically probationary. I hope this sheds a little light on the situation and if anyone has any questions, feel free to contact me.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I honestly don't recall if my Lakan (at the 1989 Buffalo camp) was probationary or not.

 

[evenflow1121]

The way I was told in Kenpo, a probitionary bb isnt a bb a shodan is a bb. If you can not get your shodan at an age lower than 16-18 or whatever then you are not a bb, because that is obviously a req for shodan.

Probitionary bb should be approached with caution, especially in schools where bb's irrespective of age are treated with seniority over other students--Ive seen some of these places were a 14 yr old probitionary bb is named an asst instructor and runs around telling older folk what to do--its unbelievable.

It is however, hard to generalize, probitionary bb's have been a part of a lot of systems because in those systems individuals feel that if the student has met the reqs for bb and is of younger age that they should be given a probitionary bb, thats fine, that is a legit reason, and one not worthy of my criticism. The other side of the coin is unfortunately, probitionary bb's are also a high favorite of McDojo's in order to keep kids happy and their parents paying for more training.

 

[Dieter]

Hi,

in my opinion, besides from being a misinterpredation from the pink book which became "standart", I think the probationary black belt was used by the Professor to keep people happy.
What I mean with that?
You all know, that one of the things that were important for Remy was, to make people happy. He did not like to hurt the feelings.
This way, he could give a brown belt a promotion, even though he failed in his eyes the test for Lakan/Dayang Isa.
What Tim wrote fits in the picture. When the level was good enough, he gave Lakan/Dayang Isa straight away. If not, probationary black belt.

The reason why I think it could have been like that comes from a talk with the Professor after a grading in Germany.

We had, as usually during a black belt grading, a commission with 3 or 4 examiners from 3rd up to 6th Dan plus the Professor of course.
In the examination there were 2 students, who did not quite perform the way we expect black belts to perform.
So we were discussing, what we shall do and our decision was going towards a "fail" for those 2. Then Premy said, we could give them probatory black belt, so that they test for Lakan Isa in 6 or 12 months again. Well, we do not have the concepts of probatory black belt in our orgaisation and I had never heared of another system using that, at least here in Germany. (There may ba some, I am just not aware of them).
I at least had the feeling, that Remy did not want to hurt these people by telling them they failed and thus he suggested using the probatory black belt in that case.
But for in our organisation we don't use them, they failed.


Regards from Germany


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


BTW, this is only a theory. I don't know if it was that way (only Remy could hve told us) and I don't mean to say, that everybody who did get a probatory black belt in reality failed. No insult intended towards anybody.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

What Tim wrote fits in the picture. When the level was good enough, he gave Lakan/Dayang Isa straight away.

This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.


:asian:

 

[Dieter]

This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.

This means, that you had a probatory probatory black belt (wearing brown) and a probatory black belt (wearing black) and a Lakan Isa, meaning 1st black belt.

Is this right?


Very strange



Dieter

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This means, that you had a probatory probatory black belt (wearing brown) and a probatory black belt (wearing black) and a Lakan Isa, meaning 1st black belt.

Is this right?

Very strange

Dieter

Lakan was NOT Probationary. At one time the probationary Lakans where told to wear the 3rd Brown and the non-probationary Lakans would wear the Black. Later both would test for Lakan Isa.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

This is not what I said. Lakan and Dayang promotions could be full or probationary. If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you could wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.

This was suppose to read:

If you fully passed the test it didn't make you an ISA. It meant (in the early days) you would wear a black belt instead of a brown one. ALL belts could be probationary.

 

[Cruentus]

Very strange

Yes...the whole **** pile is.

These conversations are always hilarious to me, because what usually occurs is an attempt to impose a consistant standard for Professors ranking system. There never was one. Our 2 Datu's here have seem to notice this. So..what you have is situations where a Lakan rank could mean a full black belt, OR probationary black belt, all depending on the circumstance and the individual.

What people need to understand is that rank and titles, as Remy Presas was concerned, were used for marketing purposes. He borrowed the belt concept from Japan (and probably the title concept from the U.S.), and used it to give his art structure and credability. It worked. When he got to the U.S. and began promoting his art, he saw how giving rank and titles could be used to give people credability for marketing his art, and for giving positive reinforcement to his students to keep them trying to improve themselves through Modern Arnis. This also worked.

The way Prof. Remy Presas handled rank was successful in many ways, but it failed in creating a standard. In his mind, it didn't matter if a 3rd degree was a better fighter then the 5th degree, or if the title he just gave out held any importance, or if Lakan really meant probationary black or not, or whatever. He didn't expect people to care so much about it, because in his mind it wasn't a competition between his students because he expected us all to work together. And, if there were any disputes or questions about who was better, it was solved on the training floor, not based on rank or title. In the Philippines that he grew up in, settling things by offering physical proof was the way it was. He expected us to operate the same.

So...was the probationary belt a crock or not? Were belts worth anything at all? Does your title or rank mean anything?

I think that the answer to these will vary per individual...
And when one figures out the answer for themselves, then I think that one should show us the answer through their actions rather then anything else.

Respectfully,

Paul

 

[arnisador]

Lots of good points, Tulisan.

There was no consistency in Modern Arnis ranks. As Mr. Hartman points out, any rank could be probationary.

I think the titles were handled more consistently and with higher standards than the Lakan ranks.

 

[bart]

Revocable Black Belt?!?

So what is a black belt? Is it a measure of popularity? Is it a measure of how in tune one is to "group think"? Is it a measure of authorization to teach under an umbrella organization? If a black belt were any of those then perhaps it would make sense. But if a black belt is a measure of SKILL then this concept is absolutely ridiculous. So any deadly techniques mastered by the black belt are instantly rendered inneffective when the check for membership dues doesn't show up? I can imagine the dialogue:

Ma$ter: You have failed me. You are no longer a black belt.

Disgraced Black Belt: I feel my powers beginning to ebb now that I am not graced by your radiance. My deadly skills are already beginning to fade.

Ma$ter: If you practi$e $ome penance, I will be $ure to forgive you. Then your power$ will be re$tored.

Other Student: But Ma$ter, Disgraced Black Belt taught me my "Ten Thou$and $pear$ Throwing" technique. Is it still deadly?

Ma$ter: Of cour$e, but NOT when it i$ done by Disgraced Black Belt. Hi$ technique$ USED to be deadly but because he has fallen out of my good grace$...he'$ really not that deadly anymore. But you can $till be if you do all that I a$k.

Other Student: Thank you Ma$ter!

Disgraced Black Belt: Ma$ter, I recognize that it was not the hard work, hours of dedicated practice, and solidity of the techniques in question that made me deadly, but rather your opinion of me. I must go now and abandon all hope of deadliness.

I think that a revocable (probationary) black belt is a crock if it is supposed to be a measure of skill. If you teach someone to speak Spanish, how would you revoke it when they fall out of your grace? The Spanish is theirs if you have taught them well. They should be able to speak it before you certify them. Whether you would like to be associated with them and what they say is a different thing altogether. That might be likened more to being a member of a professional or trade organization and not a certification of fluency. IMHO it's very important to be open and honest about what the black belt is supposed to be when the students are working towards them.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Revocable Black Belt?!?

So what is a black belt? Is it a measure of popularity? Is it a measure of how in tune one is to "group think"? Is it a measure of authorization to teach under an umbrella organization? If a black belt were any of those then perhaps it would make sense. But if a black belt is a measure of SKILL then this concept is absolutely ridiculous. So any deadly techniques mastered by the black belt are instantly rendered inneffective when the check for membership dues doesn't show up? I can imagine the dialogue:

Ma$ter: You have failed me. You are no longer a black belt.

Disgraced Black Belt: I feel my powers beginning to ebb now that I am not graced by your radiance. My deadly skills are already beginning to fade.

Ma$ter: If you practi$e $ome penance, I will be $ure to forgive you. Then your power$ will be re$tored.

Other Student: But Ma$ter, Disgraced Black Belt taught me my "Ten Thou$and $pear$ Throwing" technique. Is it still deadly?

Ma$ter: Of cour$e, but NOT when it i$ done by Disgraced Black Belt. Hi$ technique$ USED to be deadly but because he has fallen out of my good grace$...he'$ really not that deadly anymore. But you can $till be if you do all that I a$k.

Other Student: Thank you Ma$ter!

Disgraced Black Belt: Ma$ter, I recognize that it was not the hard work, hours of dedicated practice, and solidity of the techniques in question that made me deadly, but rather your opinion of me. I must go now and abandon all hope of deadliness.

I think that a revocable (probationary) black belt is a crock if it is supposed to be a measure of skill. If you teach someone to speak Spanish, how would you revoke it when they fall out of your grace? The Spanish is theirs if you have taught them well. They should be able to speak it before you certify them. Whether you would like to be associated with them and what they say is a different thing altogether. That might be likened more to being a member of a professional or trade organization and not a certification of fluency. IMHO it's very important to be open and honest about what the black belt is supposed to be when the students are working towards them.

Bart,

While I agree that the knowledge cannot be removed, but the association can be. Some people would only train to get a Black Belt and then leave and teach on their own or do their own thing. So I think part of it was to control those who were questionable, and if they did not stick around the rank would not be 'Honored' later.

But, that is now how it always played out.

BTW: I liked your quote including the $

 

[arnisador]

We had a long thread about revocation a while back. I forget where it was...

 

[Andrew Green]

opps... posted in wrong place...

umm... probabtionary belts was it?

hmm.... I'll come up with something... nah, nevermind, I got nothing...

*walks out of thread in shame for posting in wrong place *

 

[Cruentus]

I think the titles were handled more consistently and with higher standards than the Lakan ranks.

I don't think so...but that's just my take.

Just to clarify, though, I am not saying that all people with titles or high rank didn't deserve them, as there are those who were deserving of what they recieved. I am just saying that I don't see the consistancy with any of it.

Paul

 

[arnisador]

I am just saying that I don't see the consistancy with any of it.

We're probably more in agreement than disagreement here. I just thought he titles were handled better--certainly not with full consistency, though.