Pressure testing self-defence techniques

[MJS]

Sure it can, strap on some safety goggles.

The effects of said techniques are not usually what comes under question, the ability to pull them off in a live environment is.

Same as if someone where to only practice throws on a willing opponent, never any randori. Put them next to a Judo fighter and the technique may be exactly the same, but the ability to execute it against a opponent that is fighting back won't be there.

As I said to RoninPimp...looking back at some past posts, you should see where I was going with that comment. I keep hearing that MMA provides the most realistic pressure testing possible against a single unarmed opponent. I know that you're involved in MMA Andrew, so please don't take this as a shot on you, but there seems to be this theory that the ring is the same as the street. Personally, I dont think that causing someone death is on the mind of the people in the ring. I don't do MMA, but I certainly pressure test the material in the arts that I do, as do my teachers. I'm more than confident in what I do.

Mike

 

[kickcatcher]

Actually, kickcatcher, I think you are confusing Pressure Testing - a training method - as being primarily (and perhaps originally) an MMA training tool, which MMA is a sport (not an art), hence it is you who are really confusing sport with pressure testing.

An interesting theory of yours. Pitty I learned about pressure testing within an RBSD framework long before I ever even heard of MMA. MMA as a community or culture, uses pressure testing either deliberately or unwittingly. The closest training to "reality" is generally thought of as "animal day" which is an RBSD pressure testing form of sparring which is not at all unlike MMA.

 

[RoninPimp]

MJS, You most certainly implied I said that. You quoted my post for crying out loud.

There may seem to be a theory that "the ring is the street" to you, but nobody here has said any such thing. So where are you getting this strawman theory?

Edited to add: shesulsa, can you please elaborate on your sport but not art comment.

 

[Andrew Green]

Well then that is all that I would argue, MMA is just a name, what matters is that things are pressure tested. It doesn't matter if you call it MMA, Karate, Kung fu, Jeet Kun Do or anything else you like.

Now the ring is not the street, I fully agree, I think most others would as well. However, what we might claim is that regardless of the environment you are training for, be it a boxing ring, Judo match, MMA fight or a even a street fight the methods to optimize performance in that environment are going to remain basically the same. The techniques might change, the strategy definately will, but the basic methods won't.

 

[Flatlander]

There's something that I don't understand here..... It seems as though everyone is basically in agreement with each other - pressure testing is an important part of self defense training. So, what's the concern?

Nobody seems to be out there explicitly declaring that any particular art or method has exclusive domain over the concept of pressure testing, are they?

How about we approach it like this:

1) There is no better way to understand the application of a technique or movement than by attempting to apply it against resisting opponents of differing sizes on a regular basis.

2) There is no specific "artform" out there that can claim exclusivity with regard to the methods of "under pressure training".

3) Appropriate safety equipment for various types of training is wise to use.

If anyone would care to attempt to refute any of these statements, perhaps we'll uncover whether or not there is a genuine disagreement here on principle. I'm confident that we'll find that we are all, in fact, in agreement on principle.

With that in mind, let's remember please that friendly discussion involves a collaborative approach to uncover the threads of truth that lie entwined within our respective points of view, and relative contextual frameworks. This doesn't need to be an "I'm right, you're wrong" type of thing. How about more of an "I'd like to understand what you mean, and respect your right to choose to train in whatever manner you believe to be suitable" approach? We'll all find that to be a more enjoyable and informative read.

 

[Brother John]

The closest training to "reality" is generally thought of as "animal day" which is an RBSD pressure testing form of sparring which is not at all unlike MMA.

really?
What's it's distinction?


Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

The techniques might change, the strategy definately will, but the basic methods won't.

How do you change the techniques and Definately change the strategy without the methods getting changed???

That doesn't really make sense. The strategy, guides the choice of techniques and sets the parameters of what can and can't, should and shouldn't happen.

This is confusing.

Your Brother
John

 

[Phil Elmore]

Depends on what you mean by "compete", in a sense we compete every class.

Therein lies the problem with sportive training methodologies. Properly conducted self-defense training is not about competing. This is the wrong goal, the wrong mindset, and the wrong tenor if one's goal is pragmatic self-defense. If one believes self-defense is a lost cause or not the primary focus of one's efforts, of course, competition is as good a goal as any.

 

[MSUTKD]

Instead of pseudo-logic, what is the way that someone should prepare, if of course they want pragmatic self defense? Can you answer that?

ron

 

[Andrew Green]

Phil, I'm going to ask something I asked you earlier but is now burried. How do you pressure test your training?

 

[Phil Elmore]

I'm pretty sure I explained that thoroughly in the thread, "The Myth of Pressure Testing."

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

How do you change the techniques and Definately change the strategy without the methods getting changed???

That doesn't really make sense. The strategy, guides the choice of techniques and sets the parameters of what can and can't, should and shouldn't happen.

This is confusing.

Your Brother
John

Well, I believe I can help a bit here. Mind, you will have to accept the simple martial arts definitions I will give you here to continue this discussion, OK? They are not perfect but they should be good enough for now.

A technique is a bodily movement designed to achieve a certain result. A jab is a technique designed to hurt someone with a fist, a koshi guruma is a technique designed to throw people to the ground, etc.

A strategy is a combination of both goals and acceptable/possible means designed to achieve said goals.

Methods, within the context at hand, are the means by which you will combine both your techniques and your strategy to achieve the goals pre-ordained by your strategy.

"Pressure testing", as I see it, is a method of training and practicing both techniques and strategies: it involves fully resistant partners and a variable element of risk of injury.

This method can be used to test and practice both weapon defenses and MMA competitions, even though in both cases the strategies and techniques will vary immensely, because the key elements of "pressure testing" - the method, according to my definition - are applicable to any and all human activity involving violence.

I hope that makes sense and is somewhat helpful.

 

[RoninPimp]

Therein lies the problem with sportive training methodologies. Properly conducted self-defense training is not about competing. This is the wrong goal, the wrong mindset, and the wrong tenor if one's goal is pragmatic self-defense. If one believes self-defense is a lost cause or not the primary focus of one's efforts, of course, competition is as good a goal as any.

-Why is that Phil? Training is never competing in the sense of win at all costs like a SD situation could be. But if I am trying to perform techniques on a training partner who is resisting and he is trying to do the same to me there is definately a toned down sense of competition happening. What other way is there to get as good as humanly possible at specific techniques?

 

[Andrew Green]

How do you change the techniques and Definately change the strategy without the methods getting changed???

That doesn't really make sense. The strategy, guides the choice of techniques and sets the parameters of what can and can't, should and shouldn't happen.

This is confusing.

Your Brother
John

Ok, consider wrestling and boxing. They share no common techniques, and very little (if any) common strategy. Yet if you look at how they train, without looking at what they train, the methods are going to be basically the same. As they would be for training to fight under any rule set, including no rules, weapons, 2 on 1 or any other situation you can come up with.

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Phil, I'm going to ask something I asked you earlier but is now burried. How do you pressure test your training?

Instead of pseudo-logic, what is the way that someone should prepare, if of course they want pragmatic self defense? Can you answer that?

Gentlemen, give up. He won´t answer and will keep pretending there is no need to answer. Let´s all concentrate on the discussion at hand, shall we?

 

[Phil Elmore]

Ok, consider wrestling and boxing. They share no common techniques, and very little (if any) common strategy. Yet if you look at how they train, without looking at what they train, the methods are going to be basically the same. As they would be for training to fight under any rule set, including no rules, weapons, 2 on 1 or any other situation you can come up with.

Absolutely. Why, just the other weekend, during my latest close-quarters shooting class, we spent a couple of hours squared off on canvas, shooting each other in the torso. After all, if those 9mm and .45 bullets won't work in the ring, how do you know they'll work on the street? Now that's "pressure testing."

Medic!

 

[Andrew Green]

Well, when I went through my infantry training, a good chunck of it had a very "sport like" feel too it. With appropriate safety measures taken.

Anyways, how do you pressure test you hand to hand techniques?

 

[RoninPimp]

Phil, you continue to ignore legitimate questions. Why?

Absolutely. Why, just the other weekend, during my latest close-quarters shooting class, we spent a couple of hours squared off on canvas, shooting each other in the torso. After all, if those 9mm and .45 bullets won't work in the ring, how do you know they'll work on the street? Now that's "pressure testing."

Medic!

-No it's not. "Pressure Testing" would be running a tactical shooting course with simunations or airsoft equipment to use on real live training partners.

 

[WingChun Lawyer]

Absolutely. Why, just the other weekend, during my latest close-quarters shooting class, we spent a couple of hours squared off on canvas, shooting each other in the torso. After all, if those 9mm and .45 bullets won't work in the ring, how do you know they'll work on the street? Now that's "pressure testing."

Medic!

Oh my, you are REALLY getting desperate to prove your points. Pity it´s hard to do that without actually arguing, isn´t it? Maybe you should start debating people´s points for a change instead of creating strawmen arguments and/or engaging in pseudo arguments like this one.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Anyways, how do you pressure test you hand to hand techniques?

The same way I "pressure test" anything else, insofar as it is possible. I describe it here.