Brother John
Senior Master
B I N G O !!Sarah said:
Your Brother
John
Pressure testing self-defence techniques
- Thread starter kickcatcher
- Start date
Your Brother
John
Brother John
Senior Master
I Disagree...RoninPimp said:
What's generally termed "Fighting" in a martial arts class (especially in a MMA or contest oriented club), and in this case "Pressure Testing" also has little to do with Real fighting.
Thing is, we can get prepared or not, somethings get us closer to being ready, others have diminishing returns for the time we put into them.
The Martial Arts are for WAY more than just fighting....AND way more than just being a "philosophical type". The longer you've been a martial artist, the more you'll come to understand this.
Your Brother
John
Brother John
Senior Master
THAT is a sensible approach!!!Cujo said:
Safety MUST prevail! Otherwise your training, which was aimed at making you MORE prepared to face a horrific physical assault, will injure or maim you.... and then you'd be MUCH less able to fend off a poodle.
Good call.
Your Brother
John
Adept
Master Black Belt
Brother John said:
Only if you want them to be. Anything can be about more than it is on the surface. Pruning trees, mowing the lawn, ten pin bowling, playing snooker or pool, long distance running, chess, painting, whatever.
The thing is, all of these things are extras. They aren't mandatory for the activity in question. And that goes for martial arts as well. Any kind of philosophy, spirituality, self improvement or lifestyle change that comes through martial arts comes about because the people involved chose to add another dimension to their training.
Street Fighting, Martial Arts, Self Defense and Combat Techniques are 4 different animals.
If you want to pressure test them, you simply do it differently.
Want to test your street fight stuff? Go take a walk through some bad neighborhoods late at night with cash sticking out of your pockets. An opportunity will find you.
Want to test your Self Defense stuff? Find a suitable scenario and run through your moves.
Combat stuff? Go enlist and request deployment to Iraq. There are guys over there more than willing to let you go be a hero so they can come home.
Your Martial Arts? IF you do the "art", enter a tournament. If you go for the deeper sides, the pressure test is within you at all times.
If you want to pressure test them, you simply do it differently.
Want to test your street fight stuff? Go take a walk through some bad neighborhoods late at night with cash sticking out of your pockets. An opportunity will find you.
Want to test your Self Defense stuff? Find a suitable scenario and run through your moves.
Combat stuff? Go enlist and request deployment to Iraq. There are guys over there more than willing to let you go be a hero so they can come home.
Your Martial Arts? IF you do the "art", enter a tournament. If you go for the deeper sides, the pressure test is within you at all times.
Edmund BlackAdder
<B>Rabid Wolverine</B>
There seem to be those who think that the UFC, Boxing, even Pro Wrestling are real self defence or combat arts. Truth is, they are not. The techniques which will work in those environments will get you killed in a street fight. The techniques that work in a street fight will land you in a bag in a war zone. The pretty dance moves in a tourney will make you hurt if done when you are being held at weapon point. The concept of pressure testing is solely dependant on what you are pressure testing for. A popular argument seems to surround even agreeing on what is a self defence technique. The traditionalists will insist it is their fancy dance steps. The MMAers will insist it "all goes to the ground" and cite some stained posters of someone named Gracie as proof. The intelligent will say it is whatever worked in that particular moment, as skill and luck often are a lot closer than the egos will admit. Be it hot ashes and an eye poke, or 3 steps to the left, spin on your back ankle and fairy kick the bloke in the john thomas followed by runlikehell-fu, you can't truely test it, because every single situation is different.
Brother John
Senior Master
fair question.....RoninPimp said:
Pressure testing, and other similar ideasĀ (very much en-vogue right now, chicĀ .popular) actually makes some sense, but it often (as here) gets presented as the be all end all of martial arts ability or pragmatism. It is not. Not by a long shot.
You see, learning and preparing to deal with a physical altercation is MUCH more than just being very used to being able to crash and thrash like a brawler. When you have the gladiator mentality of ĀThrow yourself into the fire and see whatĀs left afterwardsĀ to ĀTestĀ your skillsĀ you donĀt end up as anything more than a brawler. Brawlers try to use brawn to accomplish their ends, not skill, not abilityĀ .adrenaline and little more. What happens when you get older and your ĀBrawnĀ just aint what it used to be? Or youĀre ill? ThenĀ only finesse would serve you; because your muscles will be shaky, but proper angles and good timing will always workĀ if you learned your lessons well and engrained the work.
Besides, how are you going to get real Āclose to combatĀ and keep from maiming one another??? The Martial arts is about gaining inner and outer control.....and please don't think that I'm getting all "Philosophical type" on you with the inner control part either. That too is still very much "still about SD". I'm talking about finesse, poise, and LEARNING....becoming a cultivated martial artist. ThatĀs what helps you hold it together when the shiznit smacks the fan. Learning a martial art and cultivating yourself as such is NOT like buying the latest computer game, downloading it and then ĀtestingĀ it to ĀSee if this stuff worksĀ. ItĀs not about the techniqueĀ . ItĀs about the technician; the person. You learn your lessons, rudimentary at firstĀ .building in both difficulty and finesse. But you can learn from it, when somethings not optimalĀ it can still be tested, found wanting and improved. You can look at what went wrong, make adjustments/correct the flawĀ and do better next time. What happens when I ĀPressure TestĀ by getting ĀcloseĀ to ĀrealityĀ and the martial athlete IĀm training with has the NORMAL human response of fight or flight and his adrenal surge, combined with his training and muscularityĀ helps me slip a disk in my neck?? WOWĀ .that didnĀt go real far in the way of preparing me to be able to defend my family. (Maybe I can Ālearn my lessonĀ from that, but now I have a neck that will always be weakerĀ and I may be gun and have lost some confidence to boot) SD is Really difficult while youĀre in traction or a cast. Hope my wife can cover for me should anything happen while IĀm healing Ā .either that or I can just sit comfortably in my neck/back brace while she or my kids become victims. NiceĀ
The concept of ĀPressure TestingĀ has some good logic that leads up to it. REALLY. But the end result that most people reach, that the most crucial things to make training valuable are
1. Level of Contact
2. Level of resistanceĀ .
Is most illogical. THAT is why I used the ridiculous reference to the running head but to the Silverback Gorilla! Because nobody can hand to hand fist fight a Gorilla, let alone their alpha-male type. ItĀs just as logical. ItĀs like training and training to be a high powered swimmer and thenĀ after lots of training, conditioning and planningĀ .you jump naked into the worst white water rapids in America. Maybe youĀll live. Maybe. Quality of life is almost certain to go down though. Is that ĀSuccessĀ? Did I pass the test??
COMBAT is a craps shootĀ .almost. Our martial arts training gives us an edge, at bestĀ if you do things Right and really seek excellence, itĀs a Really Really significant edge.; but stillĀ .just an edge. Not a guarantee. SoĀ what if IĀm wrong. What if I wasnĀt ready to swim the white water rapids yet? There wouldnĀt even be enough of me left to bob in the kiddy pool.
When you throw yourself into the fire to be tested you must be ready to find the flaws in your metalĀ thing isĀ .it doesnĀt just highlight those cracksĀ Ā ..it Splits them to the point that all there is left is to melt it down and make some nails out of it. SOĀ ..what if youĀre not a natural Rambo? What if youĀre just a person of average athleticism who wants to be able to defend themselves well, but arenĀt going to dedicate the HOURS a day in the gym and dojo, to become some kind of ĀMartial AthleteĀ to do so. See, I donĀt do martial arts to ĀGet in the RingĀ and be the baddest mo-fo on the canvas. IĀm a father of twoĀ I do my martial arts to be able to disassemble anyone wanting to harm me or my family/friends. IĀm not a weekend warrior, IĀm daddy who reads Dr. Seuss and pays the bills (hopefully on time). I train in techniques that donĀt NEED me to be a brute or Hulk Hogan.
So here I goĀ gonna go ĀPressure TestĀĀ which means that too find the Greatest Value from my M.A. training IĀve got to make the greatest level of contact with the fewest number of predictable variablesĀ Ā and so does my equally hostile adversary upon whom I test myself by going quite near ĀAll out combatĀĀ as does he.
WoopsĀ whatĀs that?
My partner is better at slipping that arm around my neck and cranking than I am at escaping in time???Ā ..canĀt make it to work for a week or two now. Sorry bill collectors. Sorry family that needs meĀ .career that wonĀt wait until I heal to move on. I just took a test and am now on the mend.
Being a Brawler, which is...I think...the logical conclusion to the mind set presented as the rationale for things like "Pressure Testing", is about throwing yourself in the deep-end and seeing if you sink or swim. Thing is...it's an all or nothing kind of game; and there's not a lot of "Learning" to be done from it. It's lesson IS the test and it's a final exam. IF not....then it's not even coming close to combat. MOST of the time, people that advocate this kind of crucible-mindset trainingĀ thinking that their Brutal training is so very close to real combat. Most of my family was in Vietnam, some Army, more MarinesĀ and IĀll tell you from speaking with themĀ theyĀd thought that the crucible was rugged and that they could survive and thrive in any HEATĀ
Then they went to NamĀ
You canĀt FAKE combat, you canĀt even approximate it.
You canĀt even really come close.
What do you do when the brutal thug on the street improvises and does something completely unexpected and deadly? You OUT THINK and outmaneuver because you have that edge, a cultivated ability to keep your wits when all goes dark and the spit starts flying. You match his shifty-trickiness with your own cunning Ā .backed by SOUND trainingĀ .and when combined with your greater strength/stamina/timing/distancing..etc that youĀve engrained through your hours in the dojoĀ .hopefully you fair MUCH MUCH better than any untrained person in the same circumstance.
How do you train to ĀPressure TestĀ if your anti-headlock efforts ĀWorkĀ if your adversary is ACTUALLY intent on killing you or knocking you out. Do you Really train with people who have NO morals, no respect for life and no inhibitions toward doing the nastiest thing thy can think of? Are your training partners ĀDesperateĀ? Animals?
Please donĀt get me wrong. IĀm all for Good Hard trainingĀ .but I like the type that doesnĀt come with traction or prosthetics.
And if you say that training that mimics, or even comes close to ĀCombat RealismĀ Does NOT include such thingsĀ .
IĀd sayĀ
Get real.
HonestlyĀ .with respectĀ ..
Your Brother
John
Brother John
Senior Master
Ah--geeze Edmund....Edmund BlackAdder said:
There ya go....making good sense again, and with way fewer words than me.
Fine!!!!!!
(Great Post old man)
Your Brother
John
bydand
Senior Master
Bob Hubbard, Edmund BlackAdder, & Brother John;
Thanks for all of you putting down what I was thinking, but couldn't come up with a diplomatic way of expressing it in a post. "Pressure Testing" is just asking to get hurt, and the majority of people simply cannot afford to take that chance. Regardless if it be Family, work, bills, or self-esteem; yes I want to know if what I have been learning will work, but not at that price. Another thread on this forum dealt with "belief" if I remember correctly, that is so true! We all train in our respective MA's not because we think it is a cut-rate art, but one that will deliver what we are each seeking. It instills confidence in each of us and that WILL lead to a clearer head if and when a situation arises.
I also agree that we must "test" what we have learned, but not at the level those who advocate real pressure testing lean toward. If you have been training for some time, your body will remember what needs to be done without having to think over each and every move. That way your most important organ can be working on how to get OUT of the situation.
IMO - I don't think you can "pressure test" self-defense techniques, because there are far to many variables out there that can arise. In fighting techniques I belive you can get much closer, but we are talking about Self-defense here.
I know I just opened myself up for some major dipute, but... all discussion can help view the whole picture I guess. :shrug:
Thanks for all of you putting down what I was thinking, but couldn't come up with a diplomatic way of expressing it in a post. "Pressure Testing" is just asking to get hurt, and the majority of people simply cannot afford to take that chance. Regardless if it be Family, work, bills, or self-esteem; yes I want to know if what I have been learning will work, but not at that price. Another thread on this forum dealt with "belief" if I remember correctly, that is so true! We all train in our respective MA's not because we think it is a cut-rate art, but one that will deliver what we are each seeking. It instills confidence in each of us and that WILL lead to a clearer head if and when a situation arises.
I also agree that we must "test" what we have learned, but not at the level those who advocate real pressure testing lean toward. If you have been training for some time, your body will remember what needs to be done without having to think over each and every move. That way your most important organ can be working on how to get OUT of the situation.
IMO - I don't think you can "pressure test" self-defense techniques, because there are far to many variables out there that can arise. In fighting techniques I belive you can get much closer, but we are talking about Self-defense here.
I know I just opened myself up for some major dipute, but... all discussion can help view the whole picture I guess. :shrug:
OP
OP
kickcatcher
Green Belt
Sometimes I wonder if people even read or think about the original postĀ
.
Anyway,
The fundamental theme, which Cujo and others pick up on, but Savage and others miss, is that it's about reducing the step-up from your training to the real thing. The idea that engaging in pressure testing, or even MMA type training, automatically results in casualties is a myth, and all too often a wimpy excuse.
We have to remember that whilst "the street" can be a lethal place, not every self-defence situation will be an all-out fight to the death. Leave that mentality for the melodramatic paranoia peddlers. Therefore when we plot the ĀrealityĀ of physical self-defence it is only notional.
At the end of the day I think this is really about self-honesty, and for the instructors amongst us, honesty with your students. We all train in a manner that is less than absolutely realistic, even within the ĀRBSDĀ niche, but the extent varies depending on how we train. So every student everywhere is likely to have a Step-up between training and a real life self-defence situation. We therefore need to gauge how great that step up is and not kid ourselves otherwise. We see these false senses of security, brought about by pride, ignorance, delusion, whatever.
So when you assess the merit of models like this, please do it in a completely objective and honest manner. Too many people come to it with the desire to validate the training they already do, rather than to see how they can improve it. A couple of years ago I posted a forerunner of this model on another forum Ā you would not believe the fall-out, mostly of people who practice kata trying to argue that kata is Āhigh pressureĀĀ who are they trying to kid?!?!?!?
I donĀt train as realistically as I could. IĀm honest with myself and it motivates me to ever increase my comfort zone to accommodate ever higher pressure training. Better than sticking your head in a bucket of sand.
Anyway,
To the death????SAVAGE said:
Like Karate was ever used on battlefields, or Judo...SAVAGE said:
It's about self-defence, at least as I envisioned the chart. Awareness, Avoidance etc are all vital, but this chart specifically deals with the physical aspect, though one of the key reasons that contact levels are plotted is because of the adrenaline desensitization that comes about by sparring/testing at harder contact levels, which can also impact on the non-physical aspects.Sarah said:
The fundamental theme, which Cujo and others pick up on, but Savage and others miss, is that it's about reducing the step-up from your training to the real thing. The idea that engaging in pressure testing, or even MMA type training, automatically results in casualties is a myth, and all too often a wimpy excuse.
We have to remember that whilst "the street" can be a lethal place, not every self-defence situation will be an all-out fight to the death. Leave that mentality for the melodramatic paranoia peddlers. Therefore when we plot the ĀrealityĀ of physical self-defence it is only notional.
At the end of the day I think this is really about self-honesty, and for the instructors amongst us, honesty with your students. We all train in a manner that is less than absolutely realistic, even within the ĀRBSDĀ niche, but the extent varies depending on how we train. So every student everywhere is likely to have a Step-up between training and a real life self-defence situation. We therefore need to gauge how great that step up is and not kid ourselves otherwise. We see these false senses of security, brought about by pride, ignorance, delusion, whatever.
So when you assess the merit of models like this, please do it in a completely objective and honest manner. Too many people come to it with the desire to validate the training they already do, rather than to see how they can improve it. A couple of years ago I posted a forerunner of this model on another forum Ā you would not believe the fall-out, mostly of people who practice kata trying to argue that kata is Āhigh pressureĀĀ who are they trying to kid?!?!?!?
I donĀt train as realistically as I could. IĀm honest with myself and it motivates me to ever increase my comfort zone to accommodate ever higher pressure training. Better than sticking your head in a bucket of sand.
First off, I want to say that I believe in "pressure testing" ones SD material. I think that it is imperative. A real, live, resisting opponent will give you feedback on how to make a technique actually work on the street.
Is every technique able to be directly tested in this fashion? Obviously not. However, there always exists some measureable adaptation that a creative instructor will make in order to make testing said technique safer.
Will this reduce the amout of "reality" in the practice? Yes. But this is better then just practicing against human models who do nothing.
The key to this type of training is safety. The proper modifications and safety precautions always have to be made in order to make sure that everyone involved walks away healthy (and hopefully happy). Training without these precautions is dangerous, ill-conceived, immature, and ultimately makes the instructor liable for damages.
One of my pet peeves is when e-warriors get on the soapbox and start spouting how they fight full contact with no pads and how this is the only worthwhile training and that all training in every single technique should be like that. For one thing, that mentality is a load of garbage, because of what I said above. For another, I know for a fact that it is BS. I've got enough injuries from not being safe to know that if I kept it up, I would no longer be training. People who claim this are, to put it simply, lying. They are trying to show off and make other people feel smaller for whatever god aweful reason.
Train hard and be safe. That's the bottom line. One's overblown sense of machismo is not worth a debilitating injury or even your life.
upnorthkyosa
ps - wow, that turned into a rant! :asian:
Is every technique able to be directly tested in this fashion? Obviously not. However, there always exists some measureable adaptation that a creative instructor will make in order to make testing said technique safer.
Will this reduce the amout of "reality" in the practice? Yes. But this is better then just practicing against human models who do nothing.
The key to this type of training is safety. The proper modifications and safety precautions always have to be made in order to make sure that everyone involved walks away healthy (and hopefully happy). Training without these precautions is dangerous, ill-conceived, immature, and ultimately makes the instructor liable for damages.
One of my pet peeves is when e-warriors get on the soapbox and start spouting how they fight full contact with no pads and how this is the only worthwhile training and that all training in every single technique should be like that. For one thing, that mentality is a load of garbage, because of what I said above. For another, I know for a fact that it is BS. I've got enough injuries from not being safe to know that if I kept it up, I would no longer be training. People who claim this are, to put it simply, lying. They are trying to show off and make other people feel smaller for whatever god aweful reason.
Train hard and be safe. That's the bottom line. One's overblown sense of machismo is not worth a debilitating injury or even your life.
upnorthkyosa
ps - wow, that turned into a rant! :asian:
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
I've sparred near-full- and full-contact. It's not something you can sustain over a long period of time, no, and it requires a great deal of trust in your instructor or training partner. I've lost track of the minor injuries I've incurred, though nothing permanent, thankfully. It is not something I would recommend anyone else do. To be honest I'm not sure it teaches you so much as it affirms (or doesn't) what you believe about your approach and the techniques you prefer.
I reviewed an e-book whose author recommended this methodology:
http://themartialist.com/pecom/beyond.htm
The myth of "pressure testing" is, of course, that sportive dueling in controlled environments, with a symmetrical competitive mentality dominating the exchange, truly proves anything about pragmatic real-world self-defense strategies. Such sportive competition does prove who is better at it, within context, and it does tell us some things about techinques that can be performed against resistance and while under certain kinds of stress.
These are indicators only, though; they're not proof of anything other than what works for such types of competitions. You can learn the same thing about works against resistance, for example, by simply working combat drills with a partner who is not complying with you. Someone in this or another thread mentioned adrenal stress and padded assailant training, too -- that's another good method for learning things about what you do. None of what you learn is what I consider conclusive or "proof," however.
Even blooded combat veterans disagree on many things. Take the war in Iraq. Every third veteran has a book deal and many of them disagree with each other about the nature of the conflict, what was or was not accomplished, etc. Firearms experts who are veterans of police and military programs, some of whom have taken lives while under fire, disagree vehemently on matters of technique and execution. One could easily say any and all of these people have "pressure tested" what they believe -- but at the end of the day, they still disagree.
I reviewed an e-book whose author recommended this methodology:
http://themartialist.com/pecom/beyond.htm
The myth of "pressure testing" is, of course, that sportive dueling in controlled environments, with a symmetrical competitive mentality dominating the exchange, truly proves anything about pragmatic real-world self-defense strategies. Such sportive competition does prove who is better at it, within context, and it does tell us some things about techinques that can be performed against resistance and while under certain kinds of stress.
These are indicators only, though; they're not proof of anything other than what works for such types of competitions. You can learn the same thing about works against resistance, for example, by simply working combat drills with a partner who is not complying with you. Someone in this or another thread mentioned adrenal stress and padded assailant training, too -- that's another good method for learning things about what you do. None of what you learn is what I consider conclusive or "proof," however.
Even blooded combat veterans disagree on many things. Take the war in Iraq. Every third veteran has a book deal and many of them disagree with each other about the nature of the conflict, what was or was not accomplished, etc. Firearms experts who are veterans of police and military programs, some of whom have taken lives while under fire, disagree vehemently on matters of technique and execution. One could easily say any and all of these people have "pressure tested" what they believe -- but at the end of the day, they still disagree.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Going back to the original post, with the graph: I really don't think it is appropriate to try to graph the martial arts in this way. To do so makes a lot of assumptions that are far from universally accepted, and the arts contain a lot of gray areas and are very subjective, and this kind of thing just cannot be measured in concrete terms like this. I think the exercise of making this kind of graph is misleading and short sighted, and I would not recommend anybody put stock in this kind of attempt to quantify the arts.
OP
OP
kickcatcher
Green Belt
If whole arts can be messured by the chart it would only be because of the training activities in them. The chart cites examples such as "MMA sparring" but ultimately that's an ACTIVITY not an art.Flying Crane said:
Just out of curiosity, would you say that ballet and Tracy kempo are equals as self-defence training systems?
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
kickcatcher said:
no, but neither would I try to put them on a graph to express that.
everyone knows Ballet kicks Tracy Kenpo's ***
OP
OP
kickcatcher
Green Belt
lol, maybe you could suggest better ways to express and define WHY ballet kicks Tracy Kempo's bottom?Flying Crane said:no, but neither would I try to put them on a graph to express that.
everyone knows Ballet kicks Tracy Kenpo's ***
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Remember... the people who attack you could be hard core criminals, who are let out very often,(70%) of crimes are commited by repeated offenders.
and they don't care about you.....are you ready to defend yourself against someone who is bent on destroying you?
They don't think and act like us? ............Aloha
and they don't care about you.....are you ready to defend yourself against someone who is bent on destroying you?
They don't think and act like us? ............Aloha
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I really should just log out and forget this whole thing, but.....
When I started martial arts back in the Stone Age there were no pads no protective gear and you did get hurt. My first teacher never even mentioned protective gear (Japanese Jujitsu) and my second teacher thought the whole idea was pretty funny (non-sport Taekwondo) There were also fewer people willing to sue if a member of their family did get hurt doing martial arts.
Pressure testing, in my opinion is still not going to prepare you for what can happen in a real fight. Kata certainly will not prepare you either. Until you are up against someone that potentially is going to kill you, you simply have no idea how you will respond. There are no rules in a fight and there are no forms to follow. Is pressure testing going to prepare you for this better than kata? Probably. Is pressure testing going to get you hurt? Very likely. Will a teacher that pushes pressure testing get sued? Highly likely.
Am I a proponent of pressure testing? no. I tend to believe it can bring out the bully in many people, which is decidedly not what martial arts are about, at least to me.
I do not agree with charts in general, they are based on statistics and statistics can be manipulated depending on what you are looking for (mean, median, range, average, etc.). Basically you can make them look any way you want them to.
Martial arts are much more than fighting, but it certainly was started for fighting.
As for Ballet, I didn't see it on the chart so why use it for comparison
As for Judo it was not made for combat, it is a "do"
When I started martial arts back in the Stone Age there were no pads no protective gear and you did get hurt. My first teacher never even mentioned protective gear (Japanese Jujitsu) and my second teacher thought the whole idea was pretty funny (non-sport Taekwondo) There were also fewer people willing to sue if a member of their family did get hurt doing martial arts.
Pressure testing, in my opinion is still not going to prepare you for what can happen in a real fight. Kata certainly will not prepare you either. Until you are up against someone that potentially is going to kill you, you simply have no idea how you will respond. There are no rules in a fight and there are no forms to follow. Is pressure testing going to prepare you for this better than kata? Probably. Is pressure testing going to get you hurt? Very likely. Will a teacher that pushes pressure testing get sued? Highly likely.
Am I a proponent of pressure testing? no. I tend to believe it can bring out the bully in many people, which is decidedly not what martial arts are about, at least to me.
I do not agree with charts in general, they are based on statistics and statistics can be manipulated depending on what you are looking for (mean, median, range, average, etc.). Basically you can make them look any way you want them to.
Martial arts are much more than fighting, but it certainly was started for fighting.
As for Ballet, I didn't see it on the chart so why use it for comparison
As for Judo it was not made for combat, it is a "do"
