Pole both sides?

[Phobius]

I think you can not get the answer you seek guy b., reason being that you would first have to know yourself why you would want to learn entire Tang yik pole form. And it probably will not suit your lineage WSLVT well. It might as well, only someone that knows your teaching can answer that question. After all your teachings are not the same as those from another location or with another sifu / origin.

Basically my answer would be; no idea.

As for pole style, it serves much value to WSLVT in correlation with hand forms. To me it is used as a good way to train body structure for hand combat. My question however is perhaps not suited for this thread but what makes it in your view match so closely with the hand forms? I believe of course both sides should be practised if possible and of value to practitioner, but I am curious as to any other value the pole form has to WSLVT since it seems that lineage knows more about the form granted they start it so early.

As for besides body structure, I feel like the arm movements does not in any clearly visible way at least point to the way one would do hand combat. Most movements seem like sacrifizing distance of punch due to the fact that for a two handed grip (long pole) the pole can never be extended further than the fist closest to you. Same I do not see in hand combat and this leads to incorrect shoulder placement compared to opponent. What am I missing?

Sorry if hijacking, the other threads are so caught up in bickering and I want to just understand what it is I do not see.

 

[guy b.]

I think you can not get the answer you seek guy b., reason being that you would first have to know yourself why you would want to learn entire Tang yik pole form.

I would want to learn the Tang Yik pole form if it would benefit my wing chun and not detract from it.

My question however is perhaps not suited for this thread but what makes it in your view match so closely with the hand forms? I believe of course both sides should be practised if possible and of value to practitioner, but I am curious as to any other value the pole form has to WSLVT since it seems that lineage knows more about the form granted they start it so early.

see tension thread post 32

 

[Phobius]

I would want to learn the Tang Yik pole form if it would benefit my wing chun and not detract from it.

I need to say that this is something you have to find out for yourself.

Figuring things out for yourself is the best answer to any question relating to what benefits you. Also it is one of the few rights we have in this world.

 

[LFJ]

As for besides body structure, I feel like the arm movements does not in any clearly visible way at least point to the way one would do hand combat. Most movements seem like sacrifizing distance of punch due to the fact that for a two handed grip (long pole) the pole can never be extended further than the fist closest to you. Same I do not see in hand combat and this leads to incorrect shoulder placement compared to opponent. What am I missing?

Obviously, pole is side-body because we are holding a long inflexible pole with both hands by one end and only have this one "arm" to use. In empty-hand, we have two free and flexible arms. Of course we are not going to restrict ourselves as if we're still holding a pole. That would be silly.

The actions of the pole have analogues in empty-hand. They correspond in function; not necessarily shape or appearance, but how they affect the opponent and our opportunities. What is different in empty-hand is that we have two free and flexible arms that we are able to use independently and in cooperation. So it is more sophisticated, while yet still sharing the same core concepts and principles for fighting.

 

[wckf92]

@LFJ and @guy b.

Do either of you have a video you can post of WSL VT pole form?
(apologies if its been posted before and i missed it)
Thx

 

[LFJ]

 

[Vajramusti]

Do you pole form both sides or only one? Explain your choice.

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I am assuming that you are talking about developmental work with the kwan. After doing some work on one side- let us say biu kwan with left hold on the front,
I switch and have the right hold in the front. I do the same number of reps on both sides.. so that the body learns how to be balanced and ambidextrous.

 

[KPM]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am assuming that you are talking about developmental work with the kwan. After doing some work on one side- let us say biu kwan with left hold on the front,
I switch and have the right hold in the front. I do the same number of reps on both sides.. so that the body learns how to be balanced and ambidextrous.

For simple basic exercises I agree. LFJ, for the middle video above, would he have routinely flipped the pole around to a left side forward grip and repeated the form? Is this the entire WSLVT Pole form?

 

[guy b.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am assuming that you are talking about developmental work with the kwan. After doing some work on one side- let us say biu kwan with left hold on the front,
I switch and have the right hold in the front. I do the same number of reps on both sides.. so that the body learns how to be balanced and ambidextrous.

I do the everything both sides, but doing exercises both sides could be enough.

 

[LFJ]

LFJ, for the middle video above, would he have routinely flipped the pole around to a left side forward grip and repeated the form? Is this the entire WSLVT Pole form?

That's it. Simples. I don't know what he would routinely do, but nothing would stop one from doing the form on the other side and it would be good training.

 

[KPM]

That's it. Simples. I don't know what he would routinely do, but nothing would stop one from doing the form on the other side and it would be good training.

Ok. Thanks. But I didn't word my question very well. What I meant to ask, is this...does WSLVT teach a student at Pole level to practice the form on both sides?

 

[guy b.]

Ok. Thanks. But I didn't word my question very well. What I meant to ask, is this...does WSLVT teach a student at Pole level to practice the form on both sides?

Most that I have seen do, but some don't. I prefer to do. That was why I asked the question.

 

[guy b.]

double post

 

[LFJ]

 

[geezer]

That's titled, "Ving Tsun Hamburg". Tan guy, no shirt, tile roof and stucco "mediterranean style houses, pool and palms... who knew that Hamburg looked so much like San Diego?


OK, seriously... are we talking Germans on vacation here or what? Either way, training long pole by the pool? ... that sounds like my kind of vacation!

 

[LFJ]

Menorca.

PB seminar.

 

[guy b.]

Nice clip, good find

 

[ThatVTGuy]

Some pole techniques include spear techniques. I have never heard people who train spear on both sides. You don't shoot rifle on both sides.

I came to Wing Chun from a Northern style of Kung Fu that used a lot of the long cavalry weapons. When my Sifu showed me the pole form one day, I was impressed how much it was like the spear basics I had learned in my old system.

 

[LFJ]

I came to Wing Chun from a Northern style of Kung Fu that used a lot of the long cavalry weapons. When my Sifu showed me the pole form one day, I was impressed how much it was like the spear basics I had learned in my old system.

Same here. The main spear actions "lan, na, zha" (to intercept, seize, and thrust) correspond to the long pole actions we call "lau-seui, kam-gwan, fong-lung-cheung" (stirring water, covering pole, releasing dragon spear).

The main difference is that the spear thrust is done with the shaft sliding through the lead hand as the rear hand "punches" through to meet the lead and the body is squared up. This extends to maximum reach of the spear while keeping our body at distance. The pole is much heavier though, so we keep both hands firmly on the pole and use footwork to blast into the target after capturing the line, rather than squaring up.

Oh, and of course, the spear is always done left-hand lead. VT pole right-hand lead. In many ways the right hand is the controlling and power hand in both cases. Similar concepts, but still very different use.

 

[KPM]

One theory I have heard is that the "6 1/2 points" came about because the pole derived from a older Spear form that was practiced on both sides.....6 "points" per side with another "point" being a linking or transition point when you switched sides.....so 13 points total. If you only practice one side.....6 1/2 points. But I've never seen that spear form, so I don't know whether to believe that theory or not!