Pole both sides?

[wckf92]

There is a pole dummy in WSL VT.

Is it the kind used by gary lam? I've seen old footage of him/his students using a variety of pole jongs in his backyard...

 

[wckf92]

Pole stage is right at the beginning.

IME, certain aspects of Pole and BJD are taught right at the beginning of ones journey...though they have no idea what it is or where it comes from.

 

[wckf92]

I have only ever seen the pole on the thigh with that point used as a fulcrum in WSL derived wing chun. Where did you see it done differently?

Here is what I could find of WSL. I admit he does use the thigh as a pivot point at times. Unfortunately this is probably not the entire form, so hard to judge. But I see very little lateral footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

Thigh not used as a pivot in this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fssaDFhrzYw

The Pole hardly ever touches the thigh in any of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhTRZXCvY5k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBCNbVICvLk

There is very little lateral footwork in any of the Wing Chun Pole footage that I could find.

Compare these to the classic footage of Tang Yik. The pole held low through-out with a narrow grip. The lead leg/thigh is used to transmit power from the stance to the pole on a large percentage of techniques. There is a wide variety of footwork with lots of lateral movement. The opening sequence with the lateral movement to each side while circling the pole is one of the key techniques. Watch how often he is up on the balls of his feet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U2crnECuC8



Again makes me wonder which wing chun you learned pole in initially.

And you make me wonder if you have ever been exposed to any Wing Chun other than WSL lineage.



There is a pole dummy in WSL VT.

Does it look like this? And note how Sifu Tang keeps the Pole against his thigh as much as possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-ivNnauPac



You think that YM made up his pole form by watching Tang Yik?

Personally, I don't think that. But I have seen it suggested. I think he may have gotten some inspiration for exploring different ideas with the Pole from watching Tang Yik. You still have to wonder why so many lineages from Ip Man not only have different pole forms, but even have different definitions of what the "6 1/2 points" actually are!

It's amazing how much differentiation exists, even within one family of a 1st gen student of YM. The diversity never ends.

 

[KPM]

It's amazing how much differentiation exists, even within one family of a 1st gen student of YM. The diversity never ends.

True. But if the empty hands were based on and derived form the Pole, shouldn't the Pole be the most consistent thing in the system? Shouldn't everyone be doing the same Pole form? The Pole form varies much more between lineages than does the SLT form. Shouldn't it be the other way around if the Pole was the base for everything? Just thinkin out loud. ;-)

 

[wckf92]

True. But if the empty hands were based on and derived form the Pole, shouldn't the Pole be the most consistent thing in the system? Shouldn't everyone be doing the same Pole form? The Pole form varies much more between lineages than does the SLT form. Shouldn't it be the other way around if the Pole was the base for everything? Just thinkin out loud. ;-)

Perhaps...but FWIW, I've never seen too much steadfast WC at all, even across lineages, or for that matter even within a single family! This goes for empty hand, weapons, jongs, etc. I guess its to be expected since YM decided not to appoint a lineage holder(?) before his death. Oh well. Perhaps all the flavors are a good thing for future generations?

 

[guy b.]

Is it the kind used by gary lam? I've seen old footage of him/his students using a variety of pole jongs in his backyard...

Pole dummy is any solid target for pole. Other things like hanging targets are also used.

 

[guy b.]

IME, certain aspects of Pole and BJD are taught right at the beginning of ones journey...though they have no idea what it is or where it comes from.

Full pole is taught in WSL VT from about dan chi sau stage. It integrates well with poon sau.

 

[guy b.]

True. But if the empty hands were based on and derived form the Pole, shouldn't the Pole be the most consistent thing in the system? Shouldn't everyone be doing the same Pole form? The Pole form varies much more between lineages than does the SLT form. Shouldn't it be the other way around if the Pole was the base for everything? Just thinkin out loud. ;-)

YM didn't teach it to many people. Evidence points to him being quite a negligent teacher.

 

[KPM]

Pole dummy is any solid target for pole. Other things like hanging targets are also used.

Not really a dummy if it doesn't have arms or extensions. Everyone uses targets of some sort. Hanging balls, kicking shields, even the trunk of the wooden dummy. These are not on the same level as the "Kwan Jong" from Tang Yik Weng Chun. There is even a form practiced on this.

 

[KPM]

YM didn't teach it to many people. Evidence points to him being quite a negligent teacher.

So you are suggesting that Ip Man didn't share your belief that all of Wing Chun empty hands is based upon the Pole? Because it sure seems to me that if he did, he would have put more emphasis on the Pole. He would have been more consistent with the Pole that he did teach. The pole would have been taught to everyone as the basis for the empty hands and used to teach the essential principles and concepts. The pole would have been the most consistent thing in the system. Not something taught sporadically and only to a few students.

 

[guy b.]

So you are suggesting that Ip Man didn't share your belief that all of Wing Chun empty hands is based upon the Pole? Because it sure seems to me that if he did, he would have put more emphasis on the Pole. He would have been more consistent with the Pole that he did teach. The pole would have been taught to everyone as the basis for the empty hands and used to teach the essential principles and concepts. The pole would have been the most consistent thing in the system. Not something taught sporadically and only to a few students.

I think that Yip Man didn't give much of a sh1t about most of the people who thought they were learning with him. I think he probably didn't tolerate fools or slow learners for long. I think he taught very few people his wing chun, hence the mess we see today.

 

[wckf92]

I think that Yip Man didn't give much of a sh1t about most of the people who thought they were learning with him. I think he probably didn't tolerate fools or slow learners for long. I think he taught very few people his wing chun, hence the mess we see today.

Totally agree with this statement. I think, even for him and in those times...the saying "money talks and BS walks" was alive and well. If you wanted his attention and focus, you had to up your game a little. Just speculation of course....

 

[KPM]

I think that Yip Man didn't give much of a sh1t about most of the people who thought they were learning with him. I think he probably didn't tolerate fools or slow learners for long. I think he taught very few people his wing chun, hence the mess we see today.

Is Wong Shun Leung's Pole the same as Ho Kam Ming's? Or Tsiu Tsun Ting's? Or Ip Chun's? Or Ip Ching's? Or Leung Sheung's? Because these are some of Ip Man's top students and children, whom one would think he DID "give a sh1t about." Did he make the Pole the primary focus of his teaching for these students?

 

[Danny T]

Because these are some of Ip Man's top students and children, whom one would think he DID "give a sh1t about."

I wasn't there so I may be incorrect in this but my understanding is Ip Man's sons were taught more by some of his students than by Ip himself. And it is a well known fact that Ip gave different information to different people. He also trained a lot of people who didn't learn the whole system and did a lot of filling in of material as to what they thought they saw or understood. It is also my understanding that he didn't do a lot of correcting and said for them to just go out and fight to find out what worked or didn't work.

 

[wckf92]

I wasn't there so I may be incorrect in this but my understanding is Ip Man's sons were taught more by some of his students than by Ip himself. And it is a well known fact that Ip gave different information to different people. He also trained a lot of people who didn't learn the whole system and did a lot of filling in of material as to what they thought they saw or understood. It is also my understanding that he didn't do a lot of correcting and said for them to just go out and fight to find out what worked or didn't work.

I've heard this also. I heard his sons chun and ching didn't really show any interest in learning WC till much later on in life.
I've also read somewhere that if a student asked Yip a question like 'is this correct'? he'd always say stuff like 'yes you are correct'.
Weird...

 

[KPM]

I wasn't there so I may be incorrect in this but my understanding is Ip Man's sons were taught more by some of his students than by Ip himself. And it is a well known fact that Ip gave different information to different people. He also trained a lot of people who didn't learn the whole system and did a lot of filling in of material as to what they thought they saw or understood. It is also my understanding that he didn't do a lot of correcting and said for them to just go out and fight to find out what worked or didn't work.

Probably true! And also supports my thought that Ip Man wasn't someone that considered the Pole as the core of the training and that the empty hands all derived from the Pole. Otherwise he would have given it more importance in his teaching.

 

[guy b.]

Probably true! And also supports my thought that Ip Man wasn't someone that considered the Pole as the core of the training and that the empty hands all derived from the Pole. Otherwise he would have given it more importance in his teaching.

How would you know how much emphasis YM gave the pole if he didn't give teaching wing chun much emphasis and didn't tolerate slow learners or fools?

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I'll just refer you to post #53

 

[KPM]

Here are some other examples of pretty standard Ip Man Pole method that do not use the lead thigh to link the pole to the body and help control and pole and generate force as is done in Tang Yik Weng Chun:

 

[guy b.]

Is Wong Shun Leung's Pole the same as Ho Kam Ming's? Or Tsiu Tsun Ting's? Or Ip Chun's? Or Ip Ching's? Or Leung Sheung's? Because these are some of Ip Man's top students and children, whom one would think he DID "give a sh1t about." Did he make the Pole the primary focus of his teaching for these students?

You need to increase your cynicism. Most of those people YM obviously did not give a sh1t about. Use your eyes.