Point of Origin?

[Wing Woo Gar]

Thanks. Was debating if I wanted to point that out-in their mythology animals do have a place, but there's nothing suggesting that they dressed up specifically in the style of animals, or that if they did that it was due to animals martial prowess.

What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?

There are a lot of different mentions to them, from in saga's and from outside observer's, but from what I recall, most things actually refer to them as naked/in loincloths, rather than wearing leather of any sort. There are a few references to animals (mostly wolves), but those seem to be metaphors/similes of the author rather than sharing that they legitimately believe themselves turning into the animal, although obviously we can't know that for certain. These would be along the lines of, "they had the strength of an oxen as they barreled down", or "and they turned into wolves, ravaging everything in site". Neither of those are direct quotes, but a good sense of the type of thing that people interpret literally.

People have suggested that they ate a hallucinogenic/poisonous (most likely henbane), although there is very little/circumstantial evidence actually suggesting this.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There are a lot of different mentions to them, from in saga's and from outside observer's, but from what I recall, most things actually refer to them as naked/in loincloths, rather than wearing leather of any sort. There are a few references to animals (mostly wolves), but those seem to be metaphors/similes of the author rather than sharing that they legitimately believe themselves turning into the animal, although obviously we can't know that for certain. These would be along the lines of, "they had the strength of an oxen as they barreled down", or "and they turned into wolves, ravaging everything in site". Neither of those are direct quotes, but a good sense of the type of thing that people interpret literally.

People have suggested that they ate a hallucinogenic/poisonous (most likely henbane), although there is very little/circumstantial evidence actually suggesting this.

Thank you!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hello Folks! I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being. All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions. My knowledge ends there. As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in: the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what. Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system. I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that. So, where does it all come from? What is the point (or points) or origin? What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned? If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out. So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base. I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me. Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?

Sifu Woo talked about this in his interview in Nei Jia Quan by Jess O Brien. If you are looking for some mythological origin story, you will be disappointed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What about the bear sarks getting high and biting their shields? I don’t know this to be fact, but my understanding is they wore bear skins and imagined they were turning into bears because of the ergot or mushrooms they ate. Can anyone confirm this or refute it?

The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA

Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
"Odin could
make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or terror-struck, and
their weapons so blunt that they could no more but than a willow
wand; on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker."

 

[Steve]

The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA

Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
"Odin could
make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or terror-struck, and
their weapons so blunt that they could no more but than a willow
wand; on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker."

Oooh, I love that site. That's a rabbit hole I fall into willingly from time to time... some really cool stuff there.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oooh, I love that site. That's a rabbit hole I fall into willingly from time to time... some really cool stuff there.

It's incredibly useful when looking for a source for something.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA

Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
"Odin could
make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or terror-struck, and
their weapons so blunt that they could no more but than a willow
wand; on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker."

Maybe that’s it. I read something a long time ago about it. That the sheild biting and drug used were related. Again, I have no credible knowledge of these things. I also heard that the word berserker means bear shirt, which sounds like they may have worn bear skin. There was also something about wolf and boar cults that were similar to the bear cult. Vikings are like the martial artists heroes of yesteryear, they have been elevated and attributed with super powers, so much so that the substance of their true nature is somewhat obscured. Horned helmets anyone?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The biting their shields part stuck out to me, so I double-checked, and believed you may have heard that from the ynglinga saga. Full text here: THE YNGLINGA SAGA

Here's the quote in question describing berserker's from this saga:
"Odin could
make his enemies in battle blind, or deaf, or terror-struck, and
their weapons so blunt that they could no more but than a willow
wand; on the other hand, his men rushed forwards without armour,
were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong
as bears or wild bulls, and killed people at a blow, but neither
fire nor iron told upon themselves. These were called Berserker."

So why the mention of biting the shields? Why is that in the description? It plays in oddly between mad as dogs or wolves, and, were strong as bears or bulls.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So why the mention of biting the shields? Why is that in the description? It plays in oddly between mad as dogs or wolves, and, were strong as bears or bulls.

Ummmm.... going out on a limb here.... drama. Biting someones shield would be stupid. All it would accomplish is getting your teeth knocked out. The saga also says they killed people with one blow of their hands. Which is also nonsense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

One thing I'm fond of telling my students is being deadly is not really that hard. Any sufficiently motivated person with a heavy or sharp object can kill another person, no training required.

My Sanda Sifu (police Sanda) once said, Sanda is not the best, or most impressive martial art. It is just a quick and easy way to teach someone how to hurt other very badly

 

[Unkogami]

Indeed. In point of fact, there has never been a single viking era helm found with horns. Not one. Further, in the art of that period, vikings are not shown with horns on their helms.
...

Well of course! The helmets just had holes in them. The Vikings grew horns out of their skulls!

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

Hello Folks! I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being. All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. ... Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?

A lot to unpack in detail and I'll leave others to it, but the TL/DR version is that Shaolin became a clearinghouse for martial skills over many centuries -- people with skills and styles joined and added to its collective knowledge, while skills and styles were developed in turn that spun off or influenced other styles. There is no straight line here. It's all verywibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ummmm.... going out on a limb here.... drama. Biting someones shield would be stupid. All it would accomplish is getting your teeth knocked out. The saga also says they killed people with one blow of their hands. Which is also nonsense.

They bit their own shields. Again, I have only read the stories, I have no historical knowledge of the subject. I assumed the shield biting was a result of the drugs or to pump each other up. Maybe to scare opponents?

 

[Grandmaster Yue men quan]

Hello Folks! I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being. All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions. My knowledge ends there. As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in: the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what. Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system. I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that. So, where does it all come from? What is the point (or points) or origin? What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned? If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out. So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base. I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me. Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?

The Indian martial art it came from is arahat hands. It's the basics of most kung fu. If you read the nie jia su wen and the books of Enoch you will come to an understanding of it in a few years.

 

[Dirty Dog]

They bit their own shields. Again, I have only read the stories, I have no historical knowledge of the subject. I assumed the shield biting was a result of the drugs or to pump each other up. Maybe to scare opponents?

The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.

I’m aware of the fact that the saga is fictional, the all father doesn’t really make people blind or deaf. There may however be some interesting historical facts that inform those stories.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The result would be the same. You bite your own shield, I'll kick it. You won't enjoy that.
It's a saga. It's written for dramatic effect, not to document history.

You might be frightened by all that drama if you were some ignorant villager facing them in the field.

 

[jergar]

H

Hello Folks! I'm trying to learn the cliff notes of Shaolin Gung Fu and how it came into being. All I know (or have read) is that Bodhidharma traveled from India to China and arrived at the Shaolin Temple where he began teaching meditation to the monks. Because they kept falling asleep during meditation, he developed the first gung fu form ever (I think it was 12 or 13 movements?) for the purpose of those monks becoming strong enough to endure the long and demanding meditation sessions. My knowledge ends there. As I read about all the different forms of Traditional Chinese Gung Fu, I hear of styles based in: the five animals, the five elements, I've read that each posture actually corresponds to the health of a given organ in the body and how that corresponds to... I don't know what. Who would watch two animals fight and deduce from this that therein lies the best fighting system. I don't believe it is that linear and believe there is so much more to it than that. So, where does it all come from? What is the point (or points) or origin? What is the relation between the five animals and the five elements where gung fu is concerned? If any one of us would attempt to devise an effective fighting system based on the way human being seems to fight, one would think a style similar to western boxing might come out. So, the fact that traditional Chinese martial arts are so different from that cause me to deduce that some intricate knowledge (something very different from how we think in the west) serves as its base. I've tried researching this topic but the key details always elude me. Could someone please enlighten me on this subject?

Hi, from what i've read over the years is that some of the arts indeed came from watching animals fight . Crane and tiger styles are perfect examples of this . Yoga as well came from watching animals . The art that i've been practicing for 35 yrs. is totally different from the animal styles as you stated. What we know from the decendents of the Grandmaster Chin Siu Dek , known as Jimmy Haw Woo (1905-1991) after he migrated to America . This style is known in China as Five Family Style, Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung with each family contributing to the total art, but this came about as a result of soldiers coming home and becoming monks. These monks are responsible for putting the system together from the experience of warriors as a form of self defense. This art is based on circles ,triangles and straight lines of movement and strikes are directed to vital ares of the body. There are no animal movements involved. Shaolin was developed by monks also, so to me the difference has to do with who and when the different styles were developed. Look at Krav Maga it is a martial art born out of a need for an effective art for war. As ancient China and Japan were in a constant state of feuding factions the need to improve their fighting skills weather it be from watching animals or a constant need to better what they had would be a natural progression. I believe that the five animals are the physical side and the five elements are the harmonious or spiritual side of them. But since we weren't around then we may never know . Hope this makes some sense. Peace .

 

[Steve]

For what it's worth, I would never think a Viking berserker would bite his shield while in combat. But I could envision berserkers on one side of a line snarling, gnashing teeth, biting their shield, and doing whatever else to intimidate and demoralize their opponents.