Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[Kung Fu Wang]

What are your thoughts on this?

I thought Karate is "one punch to kill".

The point sparring is good to train "timing, opportunity, angle, speed". It's not good to train "power". One day I pulled my punch but my opponent didn't, that was the last day I did my point sparring. I refused to put myself into that situation for the rest of my life.

 

[Buka]

It's real simple. You either train fighting or you don't. It's one of the reasons why I've always loved Karate. We fight.

 

[Zero]

It's real simple. You either train fighting or you don't. It's one of the reasons why I've always loved Karate. We fight.

But only for points!

 

[Buka]

But only for points!

Sometimes. We also box....which is sometimes competitively judged by points...if you're still standing. We also grapple....which is sometimes determined by points when you compete. We also kickbox, yadda, yadda.

Get the point? (see what I did there?)

 

[Zero]

Sometimes. We also box....which is sometimes competitively judged by points...if you're still standing. We also grapple....which is sometimes determined by points when you compete. We also kickbox, yadda, yadda.

Get the point? (see what I did there?)

Point taken (or should I say, point given?)

 

[Buka]

Touche, Zero-san.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's real simple. You either train fighting or you don't.

If you want to learn how to fight, fight. Either you knock/take me down, or I knock/take you down. There is no such thing as I "touch" you 101 times, but you only "touch" me 100 times so I win.

 

[Zero]

If you want to learn how to fight, fight. Either you knock/take me down, or I knock/take you down. There is no such thing as I "touch" you 101 times, but you only "touch" me 100 times so I win.

Please, don't touch me!

 

[ShotoNoob]

I have a few training partners that make it around the karate point fighting tourney circuit and I have gone to cheer them on. At the last tourney, I was faced with this dilemma: by the way the combatants move and the way the tourney was scored, I began to wonder whether or not it is truly karate-do.

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No question that the sport kumite conventions that have developed are in stark contrast to certain form found in traditional kumite. My view is that once karate competitors rely on althletic skills to succeed at the competition goals & rule set, you have moved from karate-do to sport-karate.

I practiced free style sparring in my dojo every Saturday for many years, with the understanding that this was mimicking combat in the street, and to a degree it was. The free-style practiced at these point fighting tourneys could potentially get someone hurt in real life if they used these techniques in a self defense situation. To me, their movements were a glorified game of tag.

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Ed Parker, father of American Kenpo, in principle defines jiyu-kumite the way you do. Traditional karate is not a sport, let alone "tag." Most styles of traditional karate limit contact... the point is to demonstrate control over your power, which control gives you the power to defeat the opponent.

I guess my takeaway was that I couldn't tell if this was truly karate-do, but if not, what constitutes karate-do?

What are your thoughts on this?

Right ON!

 

[K-man]

No question that the sport kumite conventions that have developed are in stark contrast to certain form found in traditional kumite. My view is that once karate competitors rely on althletic skills to succeed at the competition goals & rule set, you have moved from karate-do to sport-karate.

I would question 'traditional' kumite. Kumite was only made part of training once karate was introduced to Japan and competitions were organised. Part of the requirement of introducing karate into the universities was that there had to be competitions just as in judo. It was guys like Gogen Yamaguchi and Mas Oyama who started jiyu kumite.

Ed Parker, father of American Kenpo, in principle defines jiyu-kumite the way you do. Traditional karate is not a sport, let alone "tag." Most styles of traditional karate limit contact... the point is to demonstrate control over your power, which control gives you the power to defeat the opponent.
Right ON!

I you'll disagree with the limited contact bit. Traditional karate is basically grappling with the strikes as part of it. Certainly in training those strikes are delivered with no power but they can contact. What you are describing is the way karate has developed in Japan, not what you find in Okinawa, which of course brings us back to the old chestnut of defining 'traditional'.

 

[oftheherd1]

Well that one is easy. The premise is false in lots of light contact arts, such my own. We go full force with techniques, just not against each other. I kicked just hard the moment I got there as I do today. It's all in me, not the martial art.

When I studied TKD many years ago, we had a point that we aimed at. For sparing is was just shy of hitting our opponent with our strike or kick. At that point, full force was delivered. In a real situation, we were taught the point of maximum impact should be inside the opponent. In today's world of MA, that may not make much sense, or seem too difficult, but it was how we trained.

 

[ShotoNoob]

When I studied TKD many years ago, we had a point that we aimed at. For sparing is was just shy of hitting our opponent with our strike or kick. At that point, full force was delivered. In a real situation, we were taught the point of maximum impact should be inside the opponent. In today's world of MA, that may not make much sense, or seem too difficult, but it was how we trained.

You know, I think TKD is way underrated among the traditional martial arts. There's also a perception out there in MMA that TKD is speed-kick low-strength, point fighting. Glad to see a TKD traditionalist post.
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The only part I would change about your statement, IMHO, is that one should be prepared to go full force. One need not strike full force in kumite, but rather have complete control over the degree of force enacted. I myself, generally am @ 1/4 full force (or less), maybe up to 1/2 full force in free sparring. Reason is both safety & energy conservation.
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Otherwise same approach to mine....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I would question 'traditional' kumite. Kumite was only made part of training once karate was introduced to Japan and competitions were organised. Part of the requirement of introducing karate into the universities was that there had to be competitions just as in judo. It was guys like Gogen Yamaguchi and Mas Oyama who started jiyu kumite.

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I'm using traditional kumite as developed by the Okinawan Masters around Gichin Funakoshi's time. Maybe you are interpreting my kumite as jiyu-kumite (free sparring). My definition of kumite starts with ippon kumite and includes the other forms of kumite practice spelled out in the Shotokan karate syllabus. Personally, I concentrate mainly on ippon kumite.
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On who started jiyu kumite, I thought it was within early evolution of Shotokan and then became popularized on mainland Japan. I'm pretty sure you are correct about your last sentence re some big contributors.

I you'll disagree with the limited contact bit. Traditional karate is basically grappling with the strikes as part of it. Certainly in training those strikes are delivered with no power but they can contact. What you are describing is the way karate has developed in Japan, not what you find in Okinawa, which of course brings us back to the old chestnut of defining 'traditional'.

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Well, I consider the Okinawan styles traditional. I was generalizing about the limitation on contact to my style and what I have observed in my locale. As knowledgeable on Okinawan karate, you can concretely add there; where I can only make broad references to my academic study--which certainly may not bear up to what actual practitioners can relate...

 

[ShotoNoob]

...No today's tournaments are far from being "karate" they are however a representative example of a few of the techniques in karate

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Not going into a long discourse (which is uncharacteristic of me), I agree completely here. Moreover, this is one my big criticism's of how Shotokan competition kumite is practiced. Heavy reliance on the reverse punch, for example.
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We see this quite plain in Machida's MMA fighting style. He's good at it to the degree that most of his competition is vulnerable and either succumb or are put off on the defensive by it. Machida's better opponent's have also capitalized on his over-reliance on the speed-shot reverse punch. Great example, Shogun's 1st round TKO of Machida at UFC 113. Textbook example of the failure of conventional sport karate form, IMO.

 

[BryceSPQR]

The more time that passes, the further the majority of point sparring tournaments turn into tag. I asked someone why they were practicing hitting a BOB with a loose fist, and they said that they were practicing sparring. They then argued that it was safer and that you couldn't see your fingers anyway. These same people bounce. Like... a lot. To me, the last "pure" karate-do sparring was done in the 60s and 70s by the JKA. Sparring competitor's are very athletic, and very quick, but there is zero intent behind a strike.

The whole idea is that you are demonstrating a deadly technique on a live resisting opponent, but restraining yourself in such a manner that no one is hurt. Most karate schools today have lost this spirit I think. Who knows right?

www.northernshotokan.com

 

[BryceSPQR]

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I'm using traditional kumite as developed by the Okinawan Masters around Gichin Funakoshi's time. Maybe you are interpreting my kumite as jiyu-kumite (free sparring). My definition of kumite starts with ippon kumite and includes the other forms of kumite practice spelled out in the Shotokan karate syllabus. Personally, I concentrate mainly on ippon kumite.
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On who started jiyu kumite, I thought it was within early evolution of Shotokan and then became popularized on mainland Japan. I'm pretty sure you are correct about your last sentence re some big contributors.


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Well, I consider the Okinawan styles traditional. I was generalizing about the limitation on contact to my style and what I have observed in my locale. As knowledgeable on Okinawan karate, you can concretely add there; where I can only make broad references to my academic study--which certainly may not bear up to what actual practitioners can relate...

Masatoshi Nakayama I believe is the person who popularized point sparring in Shotokan. I know he was responsible for the first tournament at least.

www.northernshotokan.com

 

[ShotoNoob]

The more time that passes, the further the majority of point sparring tournaments turn into tag. I asked someone why they were practicing hitting a BOB with a loose fist, and they said that they were practicing sparring. They then argued that it was safer and that you couldn't see your fingers anyway. These same people bounce. Like... a lot. To me, the last "pure" karate-do sparring was done in the 60s and 70s by the JKA. Sparring competitor's are very athletic, and very quick, but there is zero intent behind a strike.

The whole idea is that you are demonstrating a deadly technique on a live resisting opponent, but restraining yourself in such a manner that no one is hurt. Most karate schools today have lost this spirit I think. Who knows right?

www.northernshotokan.com

\
Hespect

Masatoshi Nakayama I believe is the person who popularized point sparring in Shotokan. I know he was responsible for the first tournament at least.

www.northernshotokan.com

\
Hespect

 

[DaveB]

I have a few training partners that make it around the karate point fighting tourney circuit and I have gone to cheer them on. At the last tourney, I was faced with this dilemma: by the way the combatants move and the way the tourney was scored, I began to wonder whether or not it is truly karate-do.

I practiced free style sparring in my dojo every Saturday for many years, with the understanding that this was mimicking combat in the street, and to a degree it was. The free-style practiced at these point fighting tourneys could potentially get someone hurt in real life if they used these techniques in a self defense situation. To me, their movements were a glorified game of tag.

I guess my takeaway was that I couldn't tell if this was truly karate-do, but if not, what constitutes karate-do?

What are your thoughts on this?

A sport is a sport a martial art is a martial art.

A sport is defined by it's rules, so an elbow strike is not boxing because it is not allowed in boxing. The boxers defence against a groin kick is to complain to the referee.

Conversely, a martial art is a collection of principles and techniques that one can employ to survive a violent altercation. There are no confines to "violent altercation" other than violence.

So when a karateka does point fighting he/she is engaging in a sport whose rules force some karate shapes to the movements. He/she is not doing karate except where the fighter may use elements of the art to achieve the objective of the game.

Of its self, point fighting is a game designed around the entry phase of combat, this being based on the Japanese fencing ideal of defeating an opponent with one clean strike. Getting good at point fighting is a good way to improve skill in entry, providing it is done with the rest of what happens in mind.

Any game will by necessity be only an approximation of what a martial art is meant to be when realised. MMA obviously is a closer representation of real unarmed combat,.but even this is still a game defined by it's rules.

 

[drop bear]

A sport is a sport a martial art is a martial art.

A sport is defined by it's rules, so an elbow strike is not boxing because it is not allowed in boxing. The boxers defence against a groin kick is to complain to the referee.

Conversely, a martial art is a collection of principles and techniques that one can employ to survive a violent altercation. There are no confines to "violent altercation" other than violence.

So when a karateka does point fighting he/she is engaging in a sport whose rules force some karate shapes to the movements. He/she is not doing karate except where the fighter may use elements of the art to achieve the objective of the game.

Of its self, point fighting is a game designed around the entry phase of combat, this being based on the Japanese fencing ideal of defeating an opponent with one clean strike. Getting good at point fighting is a good way to improve skill in entry, providing it is done with the rest of what happens in mind.

Any game will by necessity be only an approximation of what a martial art is meant to be when realised. MMA obviously is a closer representation of real unarmed combat,.but even this is still a game defined by it's rules.

They are both artificial human constructs with systems and rules.

Like any sport and any art.

 

[Buka]

And then there are different eras, which have no semblance at all. None, zip, nada.