Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[TSDTexan]

That's not the story from Okinawa.

Chuckled over that.

 

[allessior]

Machida was (and is) a point fighter and he was an MMA champion. There are others in MMA who participated in point fighting tournaments and who are very successful in MMA, although the styles that have the most success in MMA are wrestling and jiujitsu.

Here is the issue, however, with how the point fighter training evolves:

First, any good traditional karate sensei teaches the student to strike with FULL FORCE, concentrated into the fist, foot, knee, elbow,,etc. So while trainining initially, the student will strike with full force to the body, but is told by the sensei that as far as the head is concerned, focus your punches annd kicks to a point 1-2inches from the actual surface of the head. This is done for INSURANCE and HEALTH reasons. It has nothing to do with the "style" being taught.

Notice that there is nothing here about "playing tag". If one is in a street situation, one simply "moves the focal point" to somwhere 1-2 inches on the "inside" of the face, and one uses combinations of rapid strikes and kicks.

Now, what happens over time is, the student gets sloppy and starts mis-interpreting the meaning of a "focal point", and the sensei is too busy teaching the mass of students to notice, therefore, a bad habit evolves and goes uncorrected. The student themselves start using the "focal point" outside the head concept as a "tag point", not a full contact point. In actual fact, the sensei has taught the student to use full contact strikes and kicks against the focal point, but then student gets lazy and simply tags that point without correction from the sensei.

Further, omce the student starts participating in point fighting tournaments, the fight is stopped by the judge every time a point is scored. This means that over time, the point fighting tournament is full of "taggers", who tag the outside focal point, then stop. It actually looks rediculous.

In my dojo, we would train "full contact" with "moving focal points". If the focal point was an "outside" focal point (meaning 1-2in from the body or head), I would watch the students carefully to make sure they were not "tagging" the point and were hitting it with full speed and correct technique, I would also make sure that the student did not stop fighting after hitting the focal point. They were forced to continue the fight, even after point scoring.

There are karate tournaments that have continuous fighting, and the points are tallied by judges over the time interval. The rounds are usually 3x3min, which means three 3-minute continuous rounds, with a 60second break between rounds. Points are tallied at the end and a winner is declared. Fighters MUST use the "outside focal point" for the head. If they knock soomeone out with a head shot, the offender loses because he could not demonstrate mastery of the "full contact to the focal point" concept.

My students participate in both types of tournaments, traditional stop&go poit fighting, and continuous fighting over 3 rounds, with full contact to the body (i.e., inside focal point) and outside focal point to the head, and sometimes we will participate in full contact tournaments with head gear, although the latter are very difficult to put on legally because of state laws. I always have my fighters train in continuous fighting, and put great emphasis on it the first day of training after a traditional stop/go poimt toirnament (so that nad habits are not developed over time).

Tag fighting is unrealistic and embarassing and we sensei must monitor our students to make sure they ate not developing "tag" styles.

 

[allessior]

In the U.S. touch and stop, point fighting is very much karate. That said it is only a part of karate. Kata competition is also karate, even worse in my opinion is the free style weapons competitions. It is all a part of karate today.
Point fighting has nothing to do with self defense and I agree could potentially get someone hurt in a situation one would have to fight for real in a physical altercation. Case in point, a Shori- Ryu 4th degree bb joined our school about 4 years ago. Gentleman was approx. 35 years old, very quick, crisp punches and kicks. Very strong point fighter, had won numerous competitions in kata a well. Great person and excellent karate competition skills but his punches and kicks had absolutely no power upon contact. He had spent almost 15 years punching and kicking very quickly put pulling them they were just fast taps. After a few training session he even stated how disappointed and embarrassed he was for he had told students he had taught how well they would be able to fight in a real situation and here he couldn't hit as hard as many of our young teenagers. It took around 3 months for him to actually contact with knock out power. Today he is a very powerful puncher and kicker but he no longer participates in point fighting.

I have studied Karate for many years and I am now a 4th Dan myself. The style is shito-ryu, and I also have a 1st Dan in jiujitsu. I have competed in many types of tornaments, including point fignting tournaments. I teach my students to you "focal points", which could be 1-2in inside your opponents body, or 1-2in outside. This is needed so that when competeting in point fighting tournaments, where full contacts to the head is illegal, one still uses full speed and power with punches and kicks to the focal point, thus eliminating the game of "tag". Unfortunately, most sensei don't teach the fhe focal point concept, and thus they reinforce the "game of tag".

Recently, two persoms from a nearby "krav Maga" school decided to come over and "watch" one of my classes at my dojo, which teaches traditional karate and jiujitsu, which I claim when combined will make you a very formidable fighter. I invited the Krav students to participate in my class, but it became apparent that they had come over to snicker and laugh, to mock the class, because one of their friends was in my class. Krav is all the rage these days, and I have foumd that the students and teachers of Krav like to mock traditional martial arts as "just sport, just a game of tag, not useful in a real fight or for self defense."

These Krav students were making a lot of noise with their snickering, so I again asked them to participate or they would have to leave. We were doing line sparring, so I after having them sign non-liability and insurance forms, I lined them up with two of my yellow belt students. Suddenly, one of the Krav students was on the ground, laid flat by a yellow belt student, who was relatively new but who had already competed in many point fighting tournaments.

I had to give the Krav student smelling salts, and his friend was apparently stunned by what had just happened. How could it be that a poimt fighter in traditional karate had knocked out a "KRAV" fighter, who apparently had many years of Krav training umder his belt? I mean after all, traditional karate is just a "game of tag", right?

It's all about the training and focal points. If you train properly, you are not "playing tag"; you are developing deadly fighting and self defense skills, and you are building it into your muscle memory. That was a knockout blow, which would have stopped a street attacker or an opponent in a full contact bout.

The Krav student decided to join my dojo and he is now a white belt with a few tips. He loves it. His friend got scared and we never saw him again.

I had later asked the yellow belt, Bill, why he did not use the "external focal point" when sparring with the Krav student. He respomded, "Sensei, I was using the external focal point, 1-2in outside the face, but then the Krav student started hitting me in the face and head whenever you turned your head to help other students. I had no choice but to switch to the internal focal point."

 

[TSDTexan]

I have studied Karate for many years and I am now a 4th Dan myself. The style is shito-ryu, and I also have a 1st Dan in jiujitsu. I have competed in many types of tornaments, including point fignting tournaments. I teach my students to you "focal points", which could be 1-2in inside your opponents body, or 1-2in outside. This is needed so that when competeting in point fighting tournaments, where full contacts to the head is illegal, one still uses full speed and power with punches and kicks to the focal point, thus eliminating the game of "tag". Unfortunately, most sensei don't teach the fhe focal point concept, and thus they reinforce the "game of tag".

Recently, two persoms from a nearby "krav Maga" school decided to come over and "watch" one of my classes at my dojo, which teaches traditional karate and jiujitsu, which I claim when combined will make you a very formidable fighter. I invited the Krav students to participate in my class, but it became apparent that they had come over to snicker and laugh, to mock the class, because one of their friends was in my class. Krav is all the rage these days, and I have foumd that the students and teachers of Krav like to mock traditional martial arts as "just sport, just a game of tag, not useful in a real fight or for self defense."

These Krav students were making a lot of noise with their snickering, so I again asked them to participate or they would have to leave. We were doing line sparring, so I after having them sign non-liability and insurance forms, I lined them up with two of my yellow belt students. Suddenly, one of the Krav students was on the ground, laid flat by a yellow belt student, who was relatively new but who had already competed in many point fighting tournaments.

I had to give the Krav student smelling salts, and his friend was apparently stunned by what had just happened. How could it be that a poimt fighter in traditional karate had knocked out a "KRAV" fighter, who apparently had many years of Krav training umder his belt? I mean after all, traditional karate is just a "game of tag", right?

It's all about the training and focal points. If you train properly, you are not "playing tag"; you are developing deadly fighting and self defense skills, and you are building it into your muscle memory. That was a knockout blow, which would have stopped a street attacker or an opponent in a full contact bout.

The Krav student decided to join my dojo and he is now a white belt with a few tips. He loves it. His friend got scared and we never saw him again.

I had later asked the yellow belt, Bill, why he did not use the "external focal point" when sparring with the Krav student. He respomded, "Sensei, I was using the external focal point, 1-2in outside the face, but then the Krav student started hitting me in the face and head whenever you turned your head to help other students. I had no choice but to switch to the internal focal point."

Hoozah! I love your work. Keep it up!

 

[Danny T]

I have studied Karate for many years and I am now a 4th Dan myself. The style is shito-ryu, and I also have a 1st Dan in jiujitsu. I have competed in many types of tornaments, including point fignting tournaments. I teach my students to you "focal points", which could be 1-2in inside your opponents body, or 1-2in outside. This is needed so that when competeting in point fighting tournaments, where full contacts to the head is illegal, one still uses full speed and power with punches and kicks to the focal point, thus eliminating the game of "tag". Unfortunately, most sensei don't teach the fhe focal point concept, and thus they reinforce the "game of tag".

Recently, two persoms from a nearby "krav Maga" school decided to come over and "watch" one of my classes at my dojo, which teaches traditional karate and jiujitsu, which I claim when combined will make you a very formidable fighter. I invited the Krav students to participate in my class, but it became apparent that they had come over to snicker and laugh, to mock the class, because one of their friends was in my class. Krav is all the rage these days, and I have foumd that the students and teachers of Krav like to mock traditional martial arts as "just sport, just a game of tag, not useful in a real fight or for self defense."

These Krav students were making a lot of noise with their snickering, so I again asked them to participate or they would have to leave. We were doing line sparring, so I after having them sign non-liability and insurance forms, I lined them up with two of my yellow belt students. Suddenly, one of the Krav students was on the ground, laid flat by a yellow belt student, who was relatively new but who had already competed in many point fighting tournaments.

I had to give the Krav student smelling salts, and his friend was apparently stunned by what had just happened. How could it be that a poimt fighter in traditional karate had knocked out a "KRAV" fighter, who apparently had many years of Krav training umder his belt? I mean after all, traditional karate is just a "game of tag", right?

It's all about the training and focal points. If you train properly, you are not "playing tag"; you are developing deadly fighting and self defense skills, and you are building it into your muscle memory. That was a knockout blow, which would have stopped a street attacker or an opponent in a full contact bout.

The Krav student decided to join my dojo and he is now a white belt with a few tips. He loves it. His friend got scared and we never saw him again.

I had later asked the yellow belt, Bill, why he did not use the "external focal point" when sparring with the Krav student. He respomded, "Sensei, I was using the external focal point, 1-2in outside the face, but then the Krav student started hitting me in the face and head whenever you turned your head to help other students. I had no choice but to switch to the internal focal point."

It's not what you train but how it is trained whether it be any of the Karate systems, Krav Maga, Boxing, Kung Fu systems, Kali system...etc.
As I stated, "point fighting in the US is very much a part of Karate but is only a part". In good training there is much more than point fighting. I know of many schools that train kata and sparring for point fight competition only. Obviously you do more. Excellent...keep it up.

 

[TSDTexan]

I have studied Karate for many years and I am now a 4th Dan myself. The style is shito-ryu, and I also have a 1st Dan in jiujitsu. I have competed in many types of tornaments, including point fignting tournaments. I teach my students to you "focal points", which could be 1-2in inside your opponents body, or 1-2in outside. This is needed so that when competeting in point fighting tournaments, where full contacts to the head is illegal, one still uses full speed and power with punches and kicks to the focal point, thus eliminating the game of "tag". Unfortunately, most sensei don't teach the fhe focal point concept, and thus they reinforce the "game of tag".

Recently, two persoms from a nearby "krav Maga" school decided to come over and "watch" one of my classes at my dojo, which teaches traditional karate and jiujitsu, which I claim when combined will make you a very formidable fighter. I invited the Krav students to participate in my class, but it became apparent that they had come over to snicker and laugh, to mock the class, because one of their friends was in my class. Krav is all the rage these days, and I have foumd that the students and teachers of Krav like to mock traditional martial arts as "just sport, just a game of tag, not useful in a real fight or for self defense."

These Krav students were making a lot of noise with their snickering, so I again asked them to participate or they would have to leave. We were doing line sparring, so I after having them sign non-liability and insurance forms, I lined them up with two of my yellow belt students. Suddenly, one of the Krav students was on the ground, laid flat by a yellow belt student, who was relatively new but who had already competed in many point fighting tournaments.

I had to give the Krav student smelling salts, and his friend was apparently stunned by what had just happened. How could it be that a poimt fighter in traditional karate had knocked out a "KRAV" fighter, who apparently had many years of Krav training umder his belt? I mean after all, traditional karate is just a "game of tag", right?

It's all about the training and focal points. If you train properly, you are not "playing tag"; you are developing deadly fighting and self defense skills, and you are building it into your muscle memory. That was a knockout blow, which would have stopped a street attacker or an opponent in a full contact bout.

The Krav student decided to join my dojo and he is now a white belt with a few tips. He loves it. His friend got scared and we never saw him again.

I had later asked the yellow belt, Bill, why he did not use the "external focal point" when sparring with the Krav student. He respomded, "Sensei, I was using the external focal point, 1-2in outside the face, but then the Krav student started hitting me in the face and head whenever you turned your head to help other students. I had no choice but to switch to the internal focal point."

War story time
I once was enjoying a beer at a hang out, when a certain point fighter came in with a 6 foot trophy. He proceeded to get smashed, and became an @$$. It was clear he was calling people out.
On my way out the door, I lost my peace when he got in my way. "You wanna piece of me"?
I shook my head, and said that I didn't have time to play with him.
He took it personally, slid into a side stance and hopped to do a backfist, reverse punch combo.
I had seen him fight before.
Without blinking, his lead foot caught an ashi barai, and I stepped over him. And left.

Word later that he KOd himself on the linoleum floor with the sweep.

 

[TSDTexan]

War story time
I once was enjoying a beer at a hang out, when a certain point fighter came in with a 6 foot trophy. He proceeded to get smashed, and became an @$$. It was clear he was calling people out.
On my way out the door, I lost my peace when he got in my way. "You wanna piece of me"?
I shook my head, and said that I didn't have time to play with him.
He took it personally, slid into a side stance and hopped to do a backfist, reverse punch combo.
I had seen him fight before.
Without blinking, his lead foot caught an ashi barai, and I stepped over him. And left.

Word later that he KOd himself on the linoleum floor with the sweep.

The point of that story was this:
A lot of what wins trophies is tactically dumb on the street.

A fast backfist, reverse punch, backfist will score tournament points but it is bad to make that (or similar stuff) basis of your toolkit.

Because of that practice, he made a drunken oops. Maybe he thought it was valid in the real world.

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[Hanshi]

Point fighting is...well, a game. It's not real fighting by any stretch of the imagination. It is a useful training tool in that it helps the student learn timing, distance, response(ing) and how to use techniques. These are all useful and necessary skills to learn. There is NO self-defense or fighting on the street; there is only explosive response to a expected attack. Once one allows an attacker to throw the first blow, he has already acquired his momentum. It can sometimes go downhill after that.

 

[JR 137]

View attachment 20671

Truer words have never been spoken regarding what's wrong with all these McDojos out there.

Competition in karate can be a great thing, so long as it's based on actual/practical karate skills rather than nonsense. Think knockdown competition like Kyokushin rather than tag games like WKF.

 

[Buka]

The term "point fighting" does not mean what it once did back in the day. So, keep that in mind and forgive the old folks when reading their posts. Different points of Martial reference.