Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[RTKDCMB]

With all due respect, do you really think situation awareness, positioning and other factors can't be accomplished through common sense?

You could, if common sense was actually that common, which it isn't.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Today's point sparring competitions only allow so many techniques ( mainly a punch or kick) and only to specified areas of the body with controlled force. I'll simply ask when the last time you saw a palm heel strike, a spear hand, a kidney punch, a throw or take down, a kick from the ground in a tournament? Heck when was the last time you saw someone able to grab and hold their opponent in a tournament?
No today's tournaments are far from being "karate" they are however a representative example of a few of the techniques in karate

 

[Hanzou]

it is what it is though.

Not every competition is designed to creating the best possible fighter. Otherwise we would all be doing mma.
(yeah i went there)

I think Kyokushin does a pretty good job with their competitions;

Now that's Karate!

 

[K-man]

Again the reality is those who train only and specifically for point fighting karate do what the training has given them. Force is a derivative of momentum and is subject to the interaction between two objects. The capacity to create force doesn't do a thing if it doesn't continue with the momentum.

I was originally taught by a guy in the Australian karate team. Although he was adept at pulling punches he could also deliver them. We used to only pull punches to the head, not the torso. My arguement against point fighting in relation to real world fighting is not that punches are pulled but that there are many other issues that point sparring ignores. Continuous fighting, grappling and throws, multiple attackers, high kicks, uneven terrain, give and take etc.

Again that is not to invalidate point sparring as such if you are training to compete, but you have to define your objectives for training.

 

[K-man]

I think Kyokushin does a pretty good job with their competitions;

Now that's Karate!

Yes, but only a very small part of karate.

 

[Danny T]

I was originally taught by a guy in the Australian karate team. Although he was adept at pulling punches he could also deliver them. We used to only pull punches to the head, not the torso. My arguement against point fighting in relation to real world fighting is not that punches are pulled but that there are many other issues that point sparring ignores. Continuous fighting, grappling and throws, multiple attackers, high kicks, uneven terrain, give and take etc.

Again that is not to invalidate point sparring as such if you are training to compete, but you have to define your objectives for training.

Absolutely on the many other issues being ignored. My referencing the pulling of punches by several I know of first hand was the lack of making contact with power due to having all their training for point fighting and touch only contact. There are others who train full power to the body (differing rule sets) and are very good at striking with power. In my area there is very few karate competitions that allow power strikes (tap only) and we have attempted to get continuous matches. Unfortunately after only few competitions with continuous matches there has not been enough participants as yet make it worth while for the hosts to maintain have them. Strange is that MMA is very strong here with multiple promotions almost every weekend within a 3 hr drive but the karate competitions are still held to tap point fighting.

 

[drop bear]

I think Kyokushin does a pretty good job with their competitions;

Now that's Karate!

yes they do.

kudo. Which is brutal as all get out. Is kind of a point competition though.

 

[K-man]

Absolutely on the many other issues being ignored. My referencing the pulling of punches by several I know of first hand was the lack of making contact with power due to having all their training for point fighting and touch only contact. There are others who train full power to the body (differing rule sets) and are very good at striking with power. In my area there is very few karate competitions that allow power strikes (tap only) and we have attempted to get continuous matches. Unfortunately after only few competitions with continuous matches there has not been enough participants as yet make it worth while for the hosts to maintain have them. Strange is that MMA is very strong here with multiple promotions almost every weekend within a 3 hr drive but the karate competitions are still held to tap point fighting.

MMA is much better organised and obviously pulls in more money. Karate tournaments until you get to the higher levels are more just to have some fun. I've never been in a tournament with weight divisions or age divisions. But then I never had any desire to compete. It was just something we did from time to time. I went in one tournament where my opponent stepped in with a kiai and a punch that was about 18" from my face. He was awarded a point which I queried only to be told I hadn't blocked the strike. I didn't have block it, I could hardly reach it. Then I stepped in and punched him lightly to the ribs. He got another point because I made contact and I was threatened with disqualification if I did it again. Needless to say, that was my last tournament in that competition. It's not part of my karate.

 

[drop bear]

yes they do.

kudo. Which is brutal as all get out. Is kind of a point competition though.

and they pull their ground punches

 

[Tez3]

MMA is marketed as a spectator sport in the same as boxing is, karate competitions tend to be only for those who actually practise karate whether they are competing or not.

 

[Probs92]

I guess the takeaway from my thoughts is this: Karate, or martial art as a whole, originates from the idea that you will have to defend yourself; martial art is for defending yourself, so as soon as you remove the serious ramifications of training (boil it down to fist tag) you remove the martial aspect.

 

[Buka]

Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

Bunting: Is it truly baseball? Yes, but there's more to the game than that.

 

[kodora81]

We do some point sparring at my Dojo, but it only makes up a small part of what we do. I'm also not a huge fan, and would much rather stick with free sparring, where my partner and I can actually trade some blows back and forth.

Is it *truly* Karate? That seems to be an ongoing question with this particular Martial Art.....'What is the essence of Karate?'

 

[Cirdan]

Is it *truly* Karate? That seems to be an ongoing question with this particular Martial Art.....'What is the essence of Karate?'

I don`t know much about Ed Parker, but I think he hit the nail on the head here:

"When pure knuckles meet pure flesh, that's pure Karate, no matter who executes it or whatever style is involved."

 

[Tez3]

Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

Bunting: Is it truly baseball? Yes, but there's more to the game than that.

Now that is truly confusing lol, over here bunting are little triangular flags on a string that is put out as a decoration in times of celebration!

 

[K-man]

Now that is truly confusing lol, over here bunting are little triangular flags on a string that is put out as a decoration in times of celebration!

Tez, Tez ... If you keep up with this behaviour I must insist you spend some time in the 'naughty corner'. Baiting our cousins isn't nice, especially when baseball is an official religion in the US.

 

[Cirdan]

I thought bunting was a backage deal like a bundle

 

[sfs982000]

I think all aspects of martial arts training have their benefits (point sparring, kata, etc....) Personally I've never been a big fan of point sparring, but again that's not to say there isn't any benefit to it. My personal experience is that point sparring was a good cardio workout, helped with footwork and closing the gap. Depending on who my opponents were we would go harder on the contact which is important in my opinion.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think point sparring can be a good training aid, but there are certainly limitations to that value.
The big problem I've always had with the format is the lack of flow. People who train extensively (or exclusively) in this manner do not learn to move from one technique to another.
The other problem I have with it is the built in assumption that ANY one strike will end a conflict. That's a valid goal, but it's not realistic. When sparring, I will often allow a weak strike to hit (which in this format breaks the action) knowing that doing so will create an opportunity for me to do something more effective. So the "one strike" format decreases the value of strategy.

 

[HankSchrader]

I have a few training partners that make it around the karate point fighting tourney circuit and I have gone to cheer them on. At the last tourney, I was faced with this dilemma: by the way the combatants move and the way the tourney was scored, I began to wonder whether or not it is truly karate-do.

I practiced free style sparring in my dojo every Saturday for many years, with the understanding that this was mimicking combat in the street, and to a degree it was. The free-style practiced at these point fighting tourneys could potentially get someone hurt in real life if they used these techniques in a self defense situation. To me, their movements were a glorified game of tag.

I guess my takeaway was that I couldn't tell if this was truly karate-do, but if not, what constitutes karate-do?

What are your thoughts on this?

Karate seems to have a bit of an identity crisis as if noone knows what real Karate is.

Judo has a similar thing ongoing with Kodokan and IJF rules. I know your thoughts on glorified game of tag. Go to a kickboxing gym and see what translates over. Sorry to hear about your crisis of faith