Point Fighting: Is it truly Karate?

[Chris Parker]

Your attitude as a teacher should be encouragement of whatever streights the student holds and this includes the psychological! I detest any putting down of lower grades.

The ones I do fairly well and put my hole body behind, I generate more force than the rest. This is genetics being the tallest of lot, combined with executing the kick properly and fast. I have no illusions genetics account for much of it.

You come to me to learn what I have to teach. You think you already know how to do it, to the point that the martial art I'm teaching you doesn't add anything, you're not a student. You're someone who wants to feel superior and powerful, and isn't listening to any lesson.

My role as a teacher is to impart my art. That ain't gonna happen if the person I'm trying to impart it to isn't being a student.

 

[Zero]

To be fair, not all practitioners are ever interested in entering a real ring. The street is different when the first one to land a strike is in a heavy advantage anyway, given he's free to do whatever he wants to. bit of a lottery....

Yes, as I said, not everyone is even interested in ring or full contact fighting and why should they?

And your best SD training is in many respects going to come from those educating you about the very important pre-cursors to the actual physical altercation, ie situational awareness, positioning, de-escalation, avoidance, etc, etc. You don't get that from sport karate or full contact kumite in itself. While able to handle themselves, there a quite a few full contact fighters, sometimes high placing ones, that have got into very bad violent situations or altercations (some ending in their unfortunate and avoidable death) because their full contact sport training had not equipped them with the awareness or mind set for an SD, "real world" situation.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Yes, as I said, not everyone is even interested in ring or full contact fighting and why should they?

And your best SD training is in many respects going to come from those educating you about the very important pre-cursors to the actual physical altercation, ie situational awareness, positioning, de-escalation, avoidance, etc, etc. You don't get that from sport karate or full contact kumite in itself. While able to handle themselves, there a quite a few full contact fighters, sometimes high placing ones, that have got into very bad violent situations or altercations (some ending in their unfortunate and avoidable death) because their full contact sport training had not equipped them with the awareness or mind set for an SD, "real world" situation.

With all due respect, do you really think situation awareness, positioning and other factors can't be accomplished through common sense? You can't train in advance for how your going to react if your life is at stake, and every situation is unique.

 

[Zero]

With all due respect, do you really think situation awareness, positioning and other factors can't be accomplished through common sense? You can't train in advance for how your going to react if your life is at stake, and every situation is unique.

I absolutely agree (!!) with you so don't worry about any issues of respect or otherwise on that one. Most of the SD concepts I have been told by the LEOs at my club or by a senior practitioner that also runs his own successful SD courses and school I was patently aware of already and put into practice from a teenager or younger (my grandfather who was in the military and saw combat also told me things when I was young and again most of these were common sense, like room clearing, assessing exit ways and dead-ends when entering any unknown building).
But you know what, and I do not know why - a lot of this does not seem to be common sense to a lot of people now days (or perhaps it is that now days a lot of people just do not have common sense or survival instincts). A lot of people and even MA people need to be repeatedly told this stuff for it to make an impression and then they still do not put it into practice - why is that?

I see a lot of people and often girls late at night in the city or on the dark streets heading home with their sight obscured by hoods, ear-plugs in with loud music, totally unaware of their surroundings or those around them. I see people, again, quite often females, talking loudly into their expensive phones walking along the streets alone at night oblivious to the impression they make or the attention they may be drawing. I see innocent people in clubs unaware of the trouble brewing around them and then they are completely surprised when a fight kicks off or they are caught up in such (not so much nowadays as my heavy bar and club session days are fading into the murky past sob sob). People unlock their car doors from a distance and get in without checking the back seat etc first. The list goes on and on.

And these habits are carried on by some of the very folks, and some quite senior, at my current karate club, so go figure.

I would say that I do not agree at all with your statement that "you can't train in advance for how you're going to react...". Taken, every situation can be unique but that does not mean the advance training you do and drill does not equip you appropriately with a tool-box and, more importantly, mind set to address those unique situations. A comment like that seems to indicate you do not have much experience in this field but I may be wrong about that?

 

[drop bear]

Sometimes sport makes an art better, sometimes it makes it worse.

Karate point fighting is the latter imo.

it is what it is though.

Not every competition is designed to creating the best possible fighter. Otherwise we would all be doing mma.
(yeah i went there)

 

[Dinkydoo]

If you know the mechanics of the technique, then your genetics will decide the force, not your background.

My head height roundhouses are more powerful than 6 months ago. I guess my genetics have improved???

Perhaps WKF schools train sport techniques, in which case it still holds true as long the proponent doesn't pull back when needed, but instead follows through.

Pulling a roundhouse and powering through are two different techniques with differing mechanics. In order to do both well you must train both; expecting to be able to do something just because you know logically how to do it ("doesn't pull back when needed") doesn't work in practice.

 

[Laplace_demon]

My head height roundhouses are more powerful than 6 months ago. I guess my genetics have improved???

Physical attributes determine the force between performers, all else equal. You can of course realise your potential to different degrees.

 

[Tez3]

I see this has turned to a SD thread now rather than one about point sparring in karate.

 

[ballen0351]

do you really think situation awareness, positioning and other factors can't be accomplished through common sense?.

No it cant many smart people go thrugh life and don't know the reality of violence. They don't practice situation awareness etc. Ive spoken to countless victims that have all said some version of "Im too smart to have let this happen to me" Most people go about their lives in their happy bubbles and have no idea what kind of violence occurs 2 block over.

 

[Zero]

I see this has turned to a SD thread now rather than one about point sparring in karate.

No. This is and always has been a thread solely about the genetic superiority of certain members compared to others. A nice Aryan undertone somewhat permeating through all... I put a smiley here for what it is worth (wait, that's no smiley!)

 

[Zero]

it is what it is though.

Not every competition is designed to creating the best possible fighter. Otherwise we would all be doing mma.
(yeah i went there)

No, you mean "otherwise we would all be doing mma (with a core focus on bjj (the only true proven sport, combative, military, SD style known to man and all other sentient beings in the universe))"

 

[Danny T]

Technique and physical attributes determine the generation of power, not formats. There is no logic to what you are saying, supposing the gentleman in question did not pull back on his techniques, out of habit.

I agree in your theory of power generation. However, the format he trained specifically was point fighting. Though he trained kata and its delivery appeared powerful punching and kicking the air and pulling punches is what he did. After the many years of training specifically to pull it is what he did. And I have seen this in many practitioners. Practice makes habit not proper technique or application. Proper practice makes it proper. You stated, “supposing the gentleman in question did not pull back on his techniques, out of habit” The reality is he pulled his punches without even realizing it. He had trained it so much it was his technique and he was excellent at it.

The reality about power generation for fighting is it doesn't matter how much you are capably of generating if you do not transfer it into the target.

 

[Danny T]

The same argument is raised against my art as in Karate and It's not valid. Our contact level in sparring is pretty much the same. If you know the mechanics of the technique, then your genetics will decide the force, not your background. Perhaps WKF schools train sport techniques, in which case it still holds true as long the proponent doesn't pull back when needed, but instead follows through.

Again the reality is those who train only and specifically for point fighting karate do what the training has given them. Force is a derivative of momentum and is subject to the interaction between two objects. The capacity to create force doesn't do a thing if it doesn't continue with the momentum.

 

[Zero]

Do you think there is any truth in those statements we see a lot these days by credible experts and some of the better fighters in the world that martial artists that don't train in bjj only do so out of a mix of fear and denial?

...hehe! Double anti-troll smileys all around!

 

[Deleted member 32980]

One word.
No
You can use karate in the game.

 

[drop bear]

Well it would also mean the karate kid was not actually doing karate.

as that was a points competition.

and i freaking loved cobra kai.

 

[Cirdan]

I think the glorified game of tag still very much is an expression of karate and practicioners show very high levels of skill at what they do.

Still it is not my cup of tea, imo it is kinda like using a broadsword to butter your sandwich. To each his own of course

 

[Zero]

With all due respect, do you really think situation awareness, positioning and other factors can't be accomplished through common sense? You can't train in advance for how your going to react if your life is at stake, and every situation is unique.

Sorry Laplace-demon, is there anyway you can change your online name/nickname? For whatever reason I have a mental block and keep reading your name as "Lap Dance". It must be some subliminal issue I have and the problem is solely (I think) my own but if you can help would be much obliged?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Technique and physical attributes determine the generation of power, not formats. There is no logic to what you are saying, supposing the gentleman in question did not pull back on his techniques, out of habit.

I see three main mechanisms whereby practitioners who primarily/exclusively train for no-contact/light-contact sparring can rob themselves of power.

1) Range: there can be a strong tendency to throw strikes from a range where they barely touch the skin rather than penetrating through to do actual damage.
2) Pulling strikes out of habit.
3) Body mechanics: the alignment/timing/power generation/etc necessary for sneaking in a quick "tag" at long range are not the same as the technique needed to generate solid impact.

Light contact sparring can be a useful training tool in its place, but there is a huge difference between doing it with someone who has experience in full-contact and someone who only has experience playing "tag."

 

[Zero]

Well it would also mean the karate kid was not actually doing karate.

as that was a points competition.

and i freaking loved cobra kai.

Cobra Kai Never Die - and the karate kid was never just points, uh-uh, that was for keeps.