Pin Sun Wing Chun & Wing Chun Boxing

[KPM]

You asked what was changed? Just watch the first clip and set, Jut Choi. It's basically a TWC version and not Pin Sun..... I didn't need to watch more than a few minutes to see that.....

---TWC doesn't have a Jut Choi set or that sequence of movements in any of its forms. So how can it be a "TWC version"?

Keith, just be honest. You visited me on 2.5 occassions over a few years and then maybe a decade later you visited Marc a couple of times. Yes, a couple of weekends of training is learning something quickly.

---Sure. I'll be honest about that! But....how can you have a "0.5 occasion"? And when I visited Marc, Sifu Henry Mui himself stopped in at several points, talked to Marc about my progress, watched what I was doing, and gave his personal stamp of approval. Henry Mui signed my certificate, not Marc. And you are completely discounting the time and effort spent on training outside of those intense instructional sessions. Or the feedback given repeatedly over time to videos exchanged demonstrating progress. How else does having a "distant student" work? So you are willing to discount the teaching provided to every "distant student" of any teacher?


Think about this, if the average person attended two or three classes per week, you essentially had two weeks of actual training over a decade. That's the totality of your Pin Sun experience even tho you seem to enjoy this facade you created about being an 'instructor under Mui'.

---Think about this, most people solidify what they know when they practice on their own. First hand instruction puts them on the path, but they have to put in the "flight time" of practice to make it their own. You seem to be so willing to discount over a decade of personal practice and development. My learning didn't stop just because I was not in your presence.


In Mui's Martial Art Association you are ranked 'Jr Instructor' under Mark K. You were given permission to start a study group but actually have no permission to teach. Ten years ago you were doing the same nonsense.

---You are wrong. Nothing was said about being "only" a study group leader. No one required that I was going to be monitored or need to return for more training or any of that. Marc essentially welcomed me as a member of the family and told me I could come back any time if I desired. There were no requirements placed upon me. And I have never claimed to represent anyone but myself. But I will damn sure continue to include Henry Mui in my Pin Sun lineage chart when anyone asks.

---But if you want to air dirty laundry, let's talk about what happened ten years ago. I was your distant student...who you accepted as such....who you gave feedback and approval to based upon personal interaction and me sending video of myself and my training partner and our progress. You made me stick with just 4 San Sik for an entire year before you would show me anything else, despite the fact that I already had many years experience doing Ip Man Wing Chun. Then you showed me the next 6 San Sik that I would have to spend at least another year developing before you would show me more. That is not exactly "quickly learned." I liked to post in the forums then, just as I do now. But you didn't like me mentioning things about Pin Sun because you were very secretive about it and didn't want people to know any details. So you eventually told me you didn't want me to post in the forums at all. It was about that time that you started learning the I Chuan Chi Gung stuff. You demanded that all of your students also start learning that and to practice it daily. I was in medical school at the time and barely had time to practice my Pin Sun San Sik, let alone standing in Chi Gung for 20 to 30 minutes every day. I just did not see it as something I wanted to get into at the time. But you demanded that your students do this if they wanted to continue with the Wing Chun. Between me refusing to do the I Chuan and you not liking me revealing Pin Sun "secrets" on the forums we reached a mutual agreement to split. I attempted to keep it on friendly terms, but then for awhile every time I posted in the KFO forum you seemed to pop up and try to discount what I was saying in some way, even when it had nothing to do with Pin Sun. And anyone that has been around here in recent years knows I have defended by you and Pin Sun against negative comments and posts. Yet you still seem to think of me as an enemy because I split from you as my instructor after you became so controlling. And now, rather than saying I have taken my Pin Sun training in an interesting direction and wish me luck, you post to drag me down and make negative comments. Yeah, you are right. Some things never change!

 

[Jim Roselando]

My replies are blow:

You asked what was changed? Just watch the first clip and set, Jut Choi. It's basically a TWC version and not Pin Sun..... I didn't need to watch more than a few minutes to see that.....

---TWC doesn't have a Jut Choi set or that sequence of movements in any of its forms. So how can it be a "TWC version"?


I said your Jut Choi was a TWC version of it and not the Pin Sun way.. I probably should have said; Your TWC version of it..... Either way, the statement was accurate. JR

****

Keith, just be honest. You visited me on 2.5 occassions over a few years and then maybe a decade later you visited Marc a couple of times. Yes, a couple of weekends of training is learning something quickly.

---Sure. I'll be honest about that! But....how can you have a "0.5 occasion"? And when I visited Marc, Sifu Henry Mui himself stopped in at several points, talked to Marc about my progress, watched what I was doing, and gave his personal stamp of approval. Henry Mui signed my certificate, not Marc. And you are completely discounting the time and effort spent on training outside of those intense instructional sessions. Or the feedback given repeatedly over time to videos exchanged demonstrating progress. How else does having a "distant student" work? So you are willing to discount the teaching provided to every "distant student" of any teacher?

First year you visited on one occasion for a couple of classes. Second year you visited once for a couple of classes, and then came back for one brief session with one of your pupils (that's the .5). So, the first year you had 1 training session and second year 1.5. You learned about 6 moves total. A distant student eventually becomes qualified due to the time and effort they make to achieve skill in our art. That is something that takes regular interaction, progressive training and not achieved from someone showing you the moves once or twice and wallah.... Pooof..... That's all that's needed? BTW: In Mui's organization, he is the only one who signs the certificates. Nobody else. So please don't try to use that as leverage. AND, when I asked him about you, I had to show him a photo so he would remember who you were, and he replied; He came to Boston a couple of times to train with Mark. I gave him Jr Instructor but I never saw him again after that...... JR

***


Think about this, if the average person attended two or three classes per week, you essentially had two weeks of actual training over a decade. That's the totality of your Pin Sun experience even tho you seem to enjoy this facade you created about being an 'instructor under Mui'.

---Think about this, most people solidify what they know when they practice on their own. First hand instruction puts them on the path, but they have to put in the "flight time" of practice to make it their own. You seem to be so willing to discount over a decade of personal practice and development. My learning didn't stop just because I was not in your presence.

You still seem to think you can acquire and art by seeing it once or twice.... Good luck. JR
***


In Mui's Martial Art Association you are ranked 'Jr Instructor' under Mark K. You were given permission to start a study group but actually have no permission to teach. Ten years ago you were doing the same nonsense.

---You are wrong. Nothing was said about being "only" a study group leader. No one required that I was going to be monitored or need to return for more training or any of that. Marc essentially welcomed me as a member of the family and told me I could come back any time if I desired. There were no requirements placed upon me. And I have never claimed to represent anyone but myself. But I will damn sure continue to include Henry Mui in my Pin Sun lineage chart when anyone asks.

You may want to contact Mui Sifu, I'm sure you can since you are an 'Instructor under Henry Mui', and ask him about the protocol of his organization. Jr Instructors do not have permission to teach. Sorry. Not my rules. Its his organization. JR

***

---But if you want to air dirty laundry, let's talk about what happened ten years ago. I was your distant student...who you accepted as such....who you gave feedback and approval to based upon personal interaction and me sending video of myself and my training partner and our progress. You made me stick with just 4 San Sik for an entire year before you would show me anything else, despite the fact that I already had many years experience doing Ip Man Wing Chun. Then you showed me the next 6 San Sik that I would have to spend at least another year developing before you would show me more. That is not exactly "quickly learned." I liked to post in the forums then, just as I do now. But you didn't like me mentioning things about Pin Sun because you were very secretive about it and didn't want people to know any details. So you eventually told me you didn't want me to post in the forums at all. It was about that time that you started learning the I Chuan Chi Gung stuff. You demanded that all of your students also start learning that and to practice it daily. I was in medical school at the time and barely had time to practice my Pin Sun San Sik, let alone standing in Chi Gung for 20 to 30 minutes every day. I just did not see it as something I wanted to get into at the time. But you demanded that your students do this if they wanted to continue with the Wing Chun. Between me refusing to do the I Chuan and you not liking me revealing Pin Sun "secrets" on the forums we reached a mutual agreement to split. I attempted to keep it on friendly terms, but then for awhile every time I posted in the KFO forum you seemed to pop up and try to discount what I was saying in some way, even when it had nothing to do with Pin Sun. And anyone that has been around here in recent years knows I have defended by you and Pin Sun against negative comments and posts. Yet you still seem to think of me as an enemy because I split from you as my instructor after you became so controlling. And now, rather than saying I have taken my Pin Sun training in an interesting direction and wish me luck, you post to drag me down and make negative comments. Yeah, you are right. Some things never change! [/QUOTE]

You are correct. In my club, I do not allow beginners to teach and we prefer people avoid forums. Yes. We do have satellite groups that visit and train regularly. Thats different from seeing something once or twice, then vanishing and thinking they got it or just need to practice...... Many, including you, mainly care about collecting a few moves (or something rare) and going around trying to become the next Mr. Youtube.... For us, its a way of maintaining quality control.

You are also correct regarding my standing post (ZZ) practice. I recommend all my people training it. One of the main reasons being......... Pin Sun has no classical SLT, so by cross training in ZZ we isolate the core of SLT which is posture, relax & breath. Claiming time was an issue is kind of funny especially since you always had plenty of time to create all kinds of stuff... Those old VHS tapes were filled with stuff you were creating.

Do I regard you as an enemy? Nope.... BUT, don't expect me to not be honest about your demo which both of my comments were accurate. A) TWC Influence & B) You Learned Quickly. JR

 

[KPM]

I said your Jut Choi was a TWC version of it and not the Pin Sun way.. I probably should have said; Your TWC version of it..... Either way, the statement was accurate. JR

---Call it whatever you want. You don't do it the same way Marc does it either.


First year you visited on one occasion for a couple of classes.

---You make it sound like I was there for a couple of hours. In truth, you spent the whole day with me and made sure everything you wanted me to know was captured on video in detail so I could review it over and over later (which I did). That is far different than just attending "a couple of classes." Again, that is how being a distant student works. Why are you trying to devalue it now??


You learned about 6 moves total.

---You taught me both the level 1 and level 2 material. More than 6 moves! And again....over a 2 year period during which I practiced regularly and sent you video for feedback. Isn't that how a "distant student program" works? That still isn't "quickly learned." "Quickly learned" would have been watching you perform the system over one session and then claiming I knew it all. Which I never did.



A distant student eventually becomes qualified due to the time and effort they make to achieve skill in our art. That is something that takes regular interaction, progressive training

---Which I did. Again, I was a med student at the time. I didn't exactly have the time or money for frequent trips to Boston. And you were Ok with that then. But now, for some reason, you want to devalue it all. You really are coming across as very petty.


In Mui's organization, he is the only one who signs the certificates. Nobody else. So please don't try to use that as leverage.

---What leverage? All I have said is that I learned Pin Sun under Henry Mui. Like I said above, he is part of my lineage chart and I will continue to acknowledge that. I acknowledge that I trained primarily with Marc, but Henry Mui was supervising. Marc has never said I couldn't teach other people. In fact, I made a DVD lesson progression for some of my students and sent a copy to Marc out of courtesy. He was impressed and complemented me on it. Unlike you, he encouraged me to do whatever I want with my Pin Sun knowledge. He put no limitations or expectations on me at all. Did he do that with Henry Mui's knowledge or blessing? I don't know. But Marc acknowledged that I had a solid marital arts background, that I moved very well, and had no problems with the way I have been doing Pin Sun or teaching it to others.



You still seem to think you can acquire and art by seeing it once or twice....

---I didn't just "see it once or twice." I had a firm background in Ip Man WCK already. I had the videos of you teaching and demo'ing which I watched multiple times after training with you. I had a training partner to practice all the 2 man drills with. I got feedback from you on video that I sent to you showing our progress. Why are you now trying to devalue and speak badly about your own "distant student" program? And how was it any different from someone with a good Wing Chun background attending one of Phillip Bayer's seminars to learn his approach to WSLVT and then going home to practice what they learned?




You may want to contact Mui Sifu, I'm sure you can since you are an 'Instructor under Henry Mui', and ask him about the protocol of his organization. Jr Instructors do not have permission to teach. Sorry. Not my rules. Its his organization. JR


---And I don't claim to represent his organization. I represent only myself. If you have a problem with what I am doing, you may want to contact Marc. Because he never said what you are saying.



Many, including you, mainly care about collecting a few moves (or something rare) and going around trying to become the next Mr. Youtube.... For us, its a way of maintaining quality control.

---What are you even talking about? I only put up my youtube lessons a few months ago. You're talking about events that happened over 10 years ago. Oh wait....you are peeved because I showed actual Pin Sun Wing Chun sets on youtube for all to see!!! I violated the "secret code"! I'm starting to get it now!!


Claiming time was an issue is kind of funny especially since you always had plenty of time to create all kinds of stuff... Those old VHS tapes were filled with stuff you were creating.

---Again, what are you even talking about? What VHS tapes? What was I creating? And you doubt that someone in medical school and residency training would be short on time?


BUT, don't expect me to not be honest about your demo which both of my comments were accurate. A) TWC Influence & B) You Learned Quickly. JR

---Ok. Then be really honest and admit that you are actually ticked off because I dared to show some Pin Sun Wing Chun to the general public.

 

[Jim Roselando]

This discussion is rolling off topic. Taking a trip down memory lane has been fun but let's stay focused. I originally stated your demo showed, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned Pin Sun. It is still a true statement even if that is a bitter pill to swallow.

Just watch the first few minutes of your TWC Jut Choi and those variations you created...... First two minutes is all it takes, and you are trying to distract by saying others do it differently, show me one person from Mui Sifu who does it your way and I'll agree.

Your new Jut Choi creation neglects the core purpose of Jut Choi training which is the conditioning and Jarn Dai Lik.

Now, lets use your logic for one minute. You spent two days training year one, and two days year two, plus one more extra session for a few hours. At this point, your training stop at Lan Kiu (#6 out of 12) Ten years later you spend two more weekends with someone. This is the totality of your exposure and experience in a system that is largely transmitted via hands on?

Imagine going to a baseball camp four times in 10 years and trying to learn baseball without a coach or interacting with other team members. Not possible and pretty arrogant! I know I know, you played baseball before so its no big deal to train yourself? Two weekends every decade adds up to very little no matter how you slice it....

As for you revealing secrets? ROFLOL.... You just don't get it. Most who think a weekend seminar or two, combined with some video or online courses is enough to qualify to represent an art but I just can't agree which is fine. We can agree to disagree.

I'm happy you have passion for throwing around the name Pin Sun, but its too bad you never had the passion to actually study it. Mui Sifu stated, Keith is only a Jr Instructor under Marc K. If he wants to teach, he needs to come back for more training. His words, not mine!

Take care

 

[KPM]

I originally stated your demo showed, TWC Influence & Quickly Learned Pin Sun. It is still a true statement even if that is a bitter pill to swallow.

---Its not a "bitter pill." It is an inaccurate statement. Since you completely dismissed what I said before, let me summarize and clarify it again for anyone following along.

---I checked my notes. I first visited Jim for training in July 2003. I went after specifically being invited to participate in his "distant student program." Many years later Jim wrote in one of his articles that he started studying with Henry Mui in April 2001. So was he actually a "fully authorized instructor" under Sifu Mui when he took me as a student? I now wonder! Jim taught me level 1 of the system. This consisted of the 2 short San Sik I showed in those videos in the OP in addition to 2 other short San Sik. And I was not a beginner. I had at least 5 years of training in Ip Man Wing Chun at that point. But those 4 short San Sik are all I practiced for 1 year, on a near daily basis. During that first intensive training session lasting many hours I taped Jim explaining those first 4 sets in detail, as well as the 2 man application for each, how each is performed on the dummy and how each is done in Chi Sau. I referred to that tape often. I recruited a training partner (which was one of Jim's requirements to have a practice partner) and I sent Jim a video of our training progress every 3 months or so for feedback. I returned to Boston for more training during my next summer break from school in 2004. Jim was satisfied with my progress on the level 1 material, so we spent many more hours going over the level 2 material and taped it all in the same fashion. As before I went home, and started practicing! I referred to those videos often! I sent videos of myself for feedback. And I kept training the San Sik on a near daily basis for another year. I was following along Jim's "distance student" program just as he designed doing what he required. On my third trip up to Boston I took my training partner with me (which was another one of Jim's requirements). But Jim would not show me any of the level 3 material because Scott was not at that point of learning yet. So we kept practicing until my eventual "fallout" with Jim. Does that sound like "quickly learned" to any of you? If Jim thinks so, then one would have to question his judgment!

Just watch the first few minutes of your TWC Jut Choi and those variations you created...... First two minutes is all it takes, and you are trying to distract by saying others do it differently, show me one person from Mui Sifu who does it your way and I'll agree.

----I've seen footage of Tracy Banks showing what he learned from Henry Mui, and it was quite different from what he showed you and Marc! As I said, Marc doesn't do things exactly like you. I've also seen plenty footage of both Fung Keung and Fung Leung, and they don't do the sets exactly like you or move like you do either. So to say I am wrong because I don't do things exactly like you is a load of bull!

Your new Jut Choi creation neglects the core purpose of Jut Choi training which is the conditioning and Jarn Dai Lik.

---But that's only one level. You should know that! And besides, my "new creation" was for Wing Chun Boxing, not Pin Sun!

Now, lets use your logic for one minute. You spent two days training year one, and two days year two, plus one more extra session for a few hours. At this point, your training stop at Lan Kiu (#6 out of 12) Ten years later you spend two more weekends with someone. This is the totality of your exposure and experience in a system that is largely transmitted via hands on?

---No it was actually 10 sets. I have it on video! And again....just because I was not in your presence for all of the many hours of training I put in doesn't mean I wasn't learning! You aren't that special! You yourself have paraphrased Leung Jan as saying that Pin Sun wasn't different from other Wing Chun, just taught from a different curriculum. And I had 5 years of training in Wing Chun already. You give me no credit for prior experience, hard work on my own, and some physical talent. You seem to think you "hold the keys to the kingdom." Again, you aren't that special!


Imagine going to a baseball camp four times in 10 years and trying to learn baseball without a coach or interacting with other team members. Not possible and pretty arrogant! I know I know, you played baseball before so its no big deal to train yourself? Two weekends every decade adds up to very little no matter how you slice it....

---That's funny, since you gave me your "seal of approval" at the time! I met all the requirements you established for your own "distant student" program up until the point you started to demand that everyone spend at least 20 minutes a day doing the "standing post." But you know what? Something else has dawned on me! You are doing the "Leung Ting thing"! How many students has Leung Ting booted out of his organization when they ticked them off? And his strategy seems to be "disown, deny, and dissemble"! That's exactly what you are doing! Now I have an idea of what Alex Richter felt like! Its a shame that so many Wing Chun people are so petty and small-minded!


I'm happy you have passion for throwing around the name Pin Sun, but its too bad you never had the passion to actually study it.

----I have posted on Pin Sun many times here over recent years. You are welcome to do a search for my posts and see if I have presented any wrong or inaccurate information. Its easy enough to do. Usually when I post about Pin Sun another Wing Chun guy that tends to be rather petty and small-minded posts to say that Pin Sun is "just a collection of drills" and not a true Wing Chun system. I have explained his error on several occasions, but he keeps saying it. And he developed that impression of Pin Sun after spending some time with you! I have also spoken highly of you and defended you on more than one occasion because despite our split I still maintained some respect for you as my first instructor in Pin Sun. But after this exchange that respect is gone. You have truly demonstrated how petty and controlling you are. I never shared those original videos we made out of respect for you. But I still have them and now I'm wondering how easy it would be to convert them to a youtube format......

----Also, a few months back and new guy showed up here and started asking me questions in a pretty rude way. When I ignored him he got more demanding and more rude. He said he was a student of yours. After several people pointed out what a horse's behind he was being he disappeared. We all thought he was Guy B. coming back under another faked identity to cause trouble. But now it seems likely that he actually WAS your student! Just what are you teaching nowadays?

---Just admit it. The only reason you have popped up to try and discredit me is because I showed Pin Sun sets on youtube. Well, guess what? More are to come!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have been incorporating the movements and concepts from Pin Sun Wing Chun into my Wing Chun Boxing.

In the past, I used to give credit to the WC system "Tan Da" for my "rhino guard" strategy. After I have found out that some WC guys don't like that, I started to tell people that I created "rhino guard" all by myself. The problem is if you "evolve" something from an exist MA system. People from that MA system may not be happy about it. Some people believe that their MA style is so perfect that any "evolution" can mean dis-respect.

 

[KPM]

You know guys, I had another realization last night. Jim wasn't very specific, but as I look back on it now.....his comment about how what I show is "TWC influenced", his reference to what I "created", and his comment about "just watching the first few minutes"....all now leads me to believe he was NOT referring to the classical Pin Sun set I was showing from 0:35 to 1:30 in that first clip. He was likely referring to the Wing Chun Boxing set I was showing at 2:55 to 3:20 of that clip! If that is true, then he didn't even bother to pay attention to what I was saying on the clip! He likely didn't even watch the whole clip or even bother to look at the second clip!

So let me be perfectly clear here. I didn't have to include the Pin Sun portion on these latest 2 lessons. I only did so to show where I am getting inspiration for my "Wing Chun Boxing." I most definitely am NOT teaching the set from 2:55 to 3:20 on that first video clip and referring to it as "Pin Sun Wing Chun." It is "Wing Chun Boxing"! But I included the Pin Sun portion to make a point. To those people that have watched my videos and said...."that's just boxing!".... Ok, maybe some boxers do something similar, which is great!....but I wanted to show exactly where we were deriving the concepts or techniques from Wing Chun. To those that have watched my videos and said..."that's just Wing Chun! What does boxing add? I was taught that in my Wing Chun!", which is also great!...maybe some Wing Chun people in more recent years are more progressive and starting to add more and more of a boxing element....... but now you have seen Jim state that no one in Pin Sun Wing Chun does it that way....so it isn't "just Wing Chun."

Let me make one more thing perfectly clear. Jim popped up here to discredit me because I showed some of the classical Pin Sun Wing Chun sets on youtube for all to see. He is using the "tried and true" Leung Ting strategy of disowning me from the lineage, denying that I truly learned any Pin Sun because I was "just a seminar student" and discrediting anything I show. This is so he can distance himself from what I show, and tell people..."No, that's not really Pin Sun! That guy didn't really learn Pin Sun Wing Chun!" Yes, petty and small-minded! Too bad that is far too common in Wing Chun!

 

[Nobody Important]

"A cripple, likewise, an accomplice and noisy, have I not shouted among the stones? Consequently, I strive to forget, I walk in our cities of iron and fire, I smile bravely at the night, I hail the storms, I shall be faithful. I have forgotten, in truth: active and deaf, henceforth. But perhaps someday, when we are ready to die of exhaustion and ignorance, I shall be able to disown our garish tombs and go and stretch out in the valley, under the same light, and learn for the last time what I know."

Author: Albert Camus

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am getting inspiration for my "Wing Chun Boxing."

When SC (Shuai Chiao) was evolved into Combat SC, we don't mention about where the strike and kick came from. It saves a lot of trouble that way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I integrated Taiji into SC, some Taiji guys said that I should not use Taiji that way. I tried not to let those kind of comments bothered me. It's my Taiji. I can do with it anyway that I want to. Fortunately, my Taiji and my SC came from the same teacher.

 

[geezer]

You know guys, I had another realization last night. Jim wasn't very specific, but as I look back on it now.....his comment about how what I show is "TWC influenced", his reference to what I "created", and his comment about "just watching the first few minutes"....all now leads me to believe he was NOT referring to the classical Pin Sun... He was likely referring to the Wing Chun Boxing set I was showing at 2:55 to 3:20 of that clip!

Yeah, I got the same impression. You would have saved a lot of time typing futile responses if you had just fired back that you were not teaching Pin Sun, TWC, or any other orthodox WC, but rather a synthesis called "WC Boxing" ...and that he should be grateful for you even bothering to credit Pin Sun for contributing a few ideas!

That would kinda pull the rug under that whole wasted spiel about you not being fully authorized to teach in their Pin Sun organization.

...For what it's worth, neither of the WC associations I have belonged to approve of members engaging with others on forums like this. They all seem to have a problem with free thinking and inventive individuals, other than their own head instructors. Probably why I have not been promoted since about 1986!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

not being fully authorized to teach in their Pin Sun organization.

The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.

One of my long fist brothers wanted to learn a "Little Baji form" from his Baji friend. His Baiji friend didn't want to teach him. My long fist brother went to watch a Baji class and stole that little Baji form within 30 minutes. A week later he started to teach old folks in the park that "little Baji form" for health.

My long fist brother did that on purpose just to "upset" the entire Baji system. There was nothing that the Baji system could do about it.

 

[KPM]

Amen John! I agree completely! To some extent a person will maintain loyalty to the organization or teacher and not share anything they know until "officially authorized." But if a teacher is acting like a real @$$, doesn't deserve that loyalty or respect and has severed the teacher/student relationship, then agreements are null and void! It is utterly ridiculous to assume that your teaching or your system is so special that someone needs personal intimate contact with you over an extended period of time to learn anything. No one is that special!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, I think a lot of the "you're not allowed to teach" comes from a different relationship than is common now. It was more paternalistic (with both the good and bad that entails), and the teacher was making sure the student was ready to teach (handle students and teach well) and to handle things like challenges, while representing the art well (somewhat a matter of honor originally - not so much so in Western culture, not sure if it still is in Asian cultures).

 

[Flying Crane]

The idea that you will need permission to teach a certain MA system is ridicules. You don't need any permission to teach any MA system. If you have learned something. It's yours.

One of my long fist brothers wanted to learn a "Little Baji form" from his Baji friend. His Baiji friend didn't want to teach him. My long fist brother went to watch a Baji class and stole that little Baji form within 30 minutes. A week later he started to teach old folks in the park that "little Baji form" for health.

My long fist brother did that on purpose just to "upset" the entire Baji system. There was nothing that the Baji system could do about it.

This is true. Nobody can stop someone from doing something, even if it is unethical and even if the person is incompetent, so long as it is not illegal.

I guess one example of an exception is the scuba industry. It self-regulates and no legitimate dive shop would provide tanks or air fills to someone who cannot show proof of certification from a recognized training organization.

There is no law backing this up, but it is industry standard.

Of course a dive shop could disregard this practice if they wanted to but they would be taking a huge liability risk if someone got injured, and if this practice became publically known they could become ostracized by the industry and their affiliations with dive organizations would be severed. It gives the whole industry a black eye so at least in first world nations it’s pretty solid. You might find people in third world nations more willing to play fast and loose with these practices, but I always advise people to avoid those outfits like the plague that they are.

So yeah, people can do what they want. That doesn’t automatically mean that they should, and those who know better often speak up about it, as they ought.

 

[geezer]

This is true. Nobody can stop someone from doing something, even if it is unethical and even if the person is incompetent, so long as it is not illegal.

It's much harder to create objective standards of competency in something as varied and vague as "martial arts" than something technical with clear and objectively certifiable standards as diving, piloting and airplane, performing brain surgery, and so forth.

I gather from reading Tez's posts that there are stricter, governmentally sanctioned standards for MA gyms in Britain, and also perhaps on the Continent, but I'm not sure how successful that is in assuring quality. My experience here in the States has been that bureaucratic oversight based on belonging to "established" organizations is no guarantee of quality of instruction. At best, it may insure that ethical business practices are followed, but if so, I haven't seen evidence of that.

Most "McDojos" have some kind of official association membership and credentials, but they don't necessarily provide high quality instruction. And conversely, I've encountered some martial artists of the highest caliber who were virtually unknown and had no membership or registration with any governing body. If such licensing were required, these kind of people might choose not to teach at all. By way of example, think of Grandmaster Yip Man when he first began teaching in Hong Kong. If he had to go through a long bureaucratic licensing process, he may never have taught his Wing Chun to the world!

Perhaps the best thing is for potential customers to do a little research before jumping in?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

All modern technology are evolved from something else.

- The "Window System" was evolved from "DOS" and "Apple Lisa".
- The "Apple Lisa" was evolved from "Xerox Star".

Can DOS stop Window from being evolved? I don't think so. Can boxing, wrestling stop MMA? I don't think that's possible either.

Can Pin Sun Wing Chun stop someone from evolving it into Wing Chun Boxing?

 

[geezer]

All modern technology are evolved from something else.
- The "Window System" was evolved from "DOS" and "Apple Lisa".
- The "Apple Lisa" was evolved from "Xerox Star".
Can DOS stop Window from being evolved? I don't think so. Can boxing, wrestling stop MMA? I don't think that's possible either.
Can Pin Sun Wing Chun stop someone from evolving it into Wing Chun Boxing?

Stop already. Your logic is killing me! Get thee behind me impious Satan!

 

[Flying Crane]

It's much harder to create objective standards of competency in something as varied and vague as "martial arts" than something technical with clear and objectively certifiable standards as diving, piloting and airplane, performing brain surgery, and so forth.

I gather from reading Tez's posts that there are stricter, governmentally sanctioned standards for MA gyms in Britain, and also perhaps on the Continent, but I'm not sure how successful that is in assuring quality. My experience here in the States has been that bureaucratic oversight based on belonging to "established" organizations is no guarantee of quality of instruction. At best, it may insure that ethical business practices are followed, but if so, I haven't seen evidence of that.

Most "McDojos" have some kind of official association membership and credentials, but they don't necessarily provide high quality instruction. And conversely, I've encountered some martial artists of the highest caliber who were virtually unknown and had no membership or registration with any governing body. If such licensing were required, these kind of people might choose not to teach at all. By way of example, think of Grandmaster Yip Man when he first began teaching in Hong Kong. If he had to go through a long bureaucratic licensing process, he may never have taught his Wing Chun to the world!

Perhaps the best thing is for potential customers to do a little research before jumping in?

I don’t disagree, so establishing standards can be very difficult and often if comes down to who will vouche for you as an instructor.
Often the best person for that is your own instructor.

 

[KPM]

often if comes down to who will vouche for you as an instructor. Often the best person for that is your own instructor.

Unless it turns out that he is petty and small-minded or on a huge ego trip or very controlling or threatened by someone else's success or creativity, etc. Leung Ting has turned his back on many good people in his organization, and so has William Cheung. In the end what counts is what you know and what you can do, not what someone else says you know or thinks you can do.