Philosophical question from a newbie

[JowGaWolf]

This might be top ten worst crap I have seen.

They just need a little more stretching.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks for that, I nearly lost my breath laughing at the music they chose.

watch it with the sound off and the music will still play in your head.

 

[Gyakuto]

Is the music of any particular significance? It is very catchy!

 

[lklawson]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

Maybe this isn't showing what you assume it is?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They just need a little more stretching.

I have these sorts come try out sometimes. They almost never come back after they realize that we actually do workouts.

 

[Gyakuto]

Maybe this isn't showing what you assume it is?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Do you mean ‘Dancing with the Stars’/Strictly…?

 

[Gyakuto]

They just need a little more stretching.

I nearly spat out my beer!

 

[lklawson]

Do you mean ‘Dancing with the Stars’/Strictly…?

No. I mean that we don't have context for what's going on. I checked the youtoob link itself and, predictably, it was specifically posted to to mock the participants, again, without context.

First let me say that if what the folks recorded in the video are doing is what everyone assume they're doing, then no, I agree that it's, um... "unimpressive." But it may not actually be what is assumed.

What if the "sparring" in the first part wasn't actually "fight" sparring, or even competition/"point" sparring? What if it was intended to be a demonstration of speed, control, and accuracy? There is a form of Jogo do Paul on the islands where a match between rivals, or even enemies, can be held in which if the stick actually makes contact with the opponent then it is a sign that the person striking has poor control and technique; they should be able to almost hit but control it at the end point and the opponent is supposed to be skilled enough to know that if his opponent has wanted, he would have been hit. What if the "sparring" in this video is something like that? But we don't know because the only thing we see is people mocking it from a perspective of ignorance and assumption. The video ends with a "group kata" but it gets out of sync very quickly and a lot of the techniques look as if they don't have direct "fighting" application. The video ends with a video game style "chi ball" being launched from a double-fist punch. Well, what if the participants/judges don't care that they're out of sync? What if it is, literally, irrelevant to what they think is important? Maybe each person is going at the speed which is appropriate for them and they would loose respect (or points or whatever) if they tried to match their speed to the others in the group kata? And what if the point of the kata wasn't "fighting?" Ask 3 martial artists what the purpose of kata is and you'll get 5 different answers. What if the purpose of this particular kata isn't fighting but, instead, is to build cardio endurance? ...or maybe speed and precision? ...or maybe anything other than the assumption of "direct application fighting?"

Most of the people judging this video are making assumptions which might not be accurate. Maybe they are, but maybe they're not. It'd be a little bit like ridiculing a slow-fire Bullseye shooting competition based on "gunfighting" criteria, or even ISPC criteria, or maybe ridiculing Olympic style Archery based on the needs of Agincourt.

So, no, I don't mean "Dancing with the Stars'/Strictly" I mean maybe this isn't showing what you assume it is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

What if the "sparring" in the first part wasn't actually "fight" sparring, or even competition/"point" sparring? What if it was intended to be a demonstration of speed, control, and accuracy?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

You are a very considerate and kind person

 

[Flying Crane]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

Anybody remember the old Apple II game Karateka? Fight through the bad guys, save the princess and at the end, she kicks you in the face and kills you. If there was a way around that ending, I never found it.

At any rate, if memory serves, the only techniques included in the game was a side kick low, medium, and high, and a lead punch and reverse punch. You could move in and out with a shuffle step or cross step.

That is how they are fighting.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No. I mean that we don't have context for what's going on. I checked the youtoob link itself and, predictably, it was specifically posted to to mock the participants, again, without context.

First let me say that if what the folks recorded in the video are doing is what everyone assume they're doing, then no, I agree that it's, um... "unimpressive." But it may not actually be what is assumed.

What if the "sparring" in the first part wasn't actually "fight" sparring, or even competition/"point" sparring? What if it was intended to be a demonstration of speed, control, and accuracy? There is a form of Jogo do Paul on the islands where a match between rivals, or even enemies, can be held in which if the stick actually makes contact with the opponent then it is a sign that the person striking has poor control and technique; they should be able to almost hit but control it at the end point and the opponent is supposed to be skilled enough to know that if his opponent has wanted, he would have been hit. What if the "sparring" in this video is something like that? But we don't know because the only thing we see is people mocking it from a perspective of ignorance and assumption. The video ends with a "group kata" but it gets out of sync very quickly and a lot of the techniques look as if they don't have direct "fighting" application. The video ends with a video game style "chi ball" being launched from a double-fist punch. Well, what if the participants/judges don't care that they're out of sync? What if it is, literally, irrelevant to what they think is important? Maybe each person is going at the speed which is appropriate for them and they would loose respect (or points or whatever) if they tried to match their speed to the others in the group kata? And what if the point of the kata wasn't "fighting?" Ask 3 martial artists what the purpose of kata is and you'll get 5 different answers. What if the purpose of this particular kata isn't fighting but, instead, is to build cardio endurance? ...or maybe speed and precision? ...or maybe anything other than the assumption of "direct application fighting?"

Most of the people judging this video are making assumptions which might not be accurate. Maybe they are, but maybe they're not. It'd be a little bit like ridiculing a slow-fire Bullseye shooting competition based on "gunfighting" criteria, or even ISPC criteria, or maybe ridiculing Olympic style Archery based on the needs of Agincourt.

So, no, I don't mean "Dancing with the Stars'/Strictly" I mean maybe this isn't showing what you assume it is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

That is, rather generous of you. I appreciate your perspective. I will question the “speed and precision“ you are describing because I didn’t see much of either in the quality of movement demonstrated. I do see the possibility of an Ameri dote quality here, mainly because of the sheer number of black belts in the room. I have seen something similar in the now defunct local Hwa Rang Do academy. It was rather difficult to sit through an entire class of inept flailing that was given extraordinary reverence.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Anytime that I have seen someone practicing Tai chi on tv, it's been an elderly person. Most of thr marketing that MA schools do for Tai chi , does seem to be aimed at older people. So, there is a stereotype being perpetuated by the MA community, itself.

Well, I think a distinction is called for. We've all seen dozens (or hundreds, in China) of older folks doing Tai Chi, with the emphasis on the internal, spiritual "Chi." (not sure if this is a correct translation of the ideogram, but still applicable here). This art evolved during the age of Taoism and was heavily influenced by it. It's a great low impact activity well designed to keep seniors limber, relaxed, balanced and their energy flow active.

Decades/centuries ago (I say that because the popular definition may have changed over time) there was Tai Chi Chu'an, with the emphasis on the "Chu'an" (fist). While still often done slowly and with much flow, the techniques were designed to be able to be executed fast with internal and external power.

It seems to me there are two different arts. The first, primarily an exercise practiced without self-defense application as commonly taught, and the second, a true martial art. Most people interested in self-defense choose other arts, not even knowing Tai Chi Chu'an as a fighting system, leaving Tai Chi for the much larger market of senior citizens.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, I think a distinction is called for. We've all seen dozens (or hundreds, in China) of older folks doing Tai Chi, with the emphasis on the internal, spiritual "Chi." (not sure if this is a correct translation of the ideogram, but still applicable here). This art evolved during the age of Taoism and was heavily influenced by it. It's a great low impact activity well designed to keep seniors limber, relaxed, balanced and their energy flow active.

Decades/centuries ago (I say that because the popular definition may have changed over time) there was Tai Chi Chu'an, with the emphasis on the "Chu'an" (fist). While still often done slowly and with much flow, the techniques were designed to be able to be executed fast with internal and external power.

It seems to me there are two different arts. The first, primarily an exercise practiced without self-defense application as commonly taught, and the second, a true martial art. Most people interested in self-defense choose other arts, not even knowing Tai Chi Chu'an as a fighting system, leaving Tai Chi for the much larger market of senior citizens.

Our system teaches Tai Chi Chuan as a martial art in addition to our gung fu style. Our system is based on integration of the two. Tai chi legs with gung fu arms. Many students only train in one or the other, but our best do both. My Sifu would ask in class, “ can you do it while I hit you and say bad things about your mother? Can you do it to both the left and to the right?“ Most people are not on their legs, most people dont even know that it can be done in both directions, fewer still know what the postures are and how to use them. Tai Chi gets a bad rap for the exact reason you stated, it usually isn’t including the Chuan part. It isn’t internal because of meditation, that’s a common misunderstanding of internal vs external. Tai Chi Chuan is iron wrapped in silk, Gung Fu is silk wrapped in iron.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you do it to both the left and to the right?“

This is a very important point. During the beginner level form training, the form may train you on both sides. During the intermediate and advance level training, the form only train you 1 side.

I have seen very few peple who do their Taiji form on both sides.

A: Why do we train our intermediate and advance form only on 1 side?
B: You have already passed your beginner level training. Now it's your own responsibility to train form on both sides.

Here is an example that beginner level form is trained on both sides.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is a very important point. During the beginner level form training, the form may train you on both sides. During the intermediate and advance level training, the form only train you 1 side.

I have seen very few peple who do their Taiji form on both sides.

A: Why do we train our intermediate and advance form only on 1 side?
B: You have already passed your beginner level training. Now it's your own responsibility to train form on both sides.

Here is an example that beginner level form is trained on both sides.

Ok I see your point. I never focused on too many forms, rather I focus on basics in the few that I practice. My teachers taught only the Yang long form Tai Chi Chuan, and a Southern Gung fu system. When he taught Tai Chi Chuan he would teach the form all the way to the right and then make you teach your self to the left. We did the form fast and painfully slow. Up to 50 minutes to complete. He would say “most people fight like a one armed man.”

 

[_Simon_]

Anybody remember the old Apple II game Karateka? Fight through the bad guys, save the princess and at the end, she kicks you in the face and kills you. If there was a way around that ending, I never found it.

At any rate, if memory serves, the only techniques included in the game was a side kick low, medium, and high, and a lead punch and reverse punch. You could move in and out with a shuffle step or cross step.

That is how they are fighting.

I gotta play that.

We had Kung Fu on the Nintendo (NES). SO fun, and many hours on that haha.

 

[Herenorthere]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall

Videos like that are what I'm talking about. How can they be black belts? It just seems, and I'm sure someone will correct me, that, unless the intention is, as someone mentioned not the majority of those wa4cjing may think, that black belts would have more skills under their belts, no pun intended.

 

[Herenorthere]

With respect to adults learning MA, has anybody observed that instructors have lower expectations, in general, for older people? I don't know, I'm just asking. As someone who, for various reasons, has had to do things later in life, my personal experience is that they do. Kids are good advertising, if they perform well. They can, potentially, win tournaments or perform impressive techniques. They have potential to represent the school in a positive way. Older people robably aren't going to win competitoons and, foe the most part, the majority of students are kids, so adults aren't going to attract students for a school. My experience has been that instructors just don't have an interest in whether older people succeed, so if they (older karate students) don't use proper technique, then instructors don't mind looking the other way. I think for a lot of schools and instructors, not just karate, adults simply represent extra money, and there are no real expectations for their performance. In fact, I had teacher (not karate), who actually told me just that. This teacher repeatedly would say, "well, you aren't going to do this for a living, so don't worry about doing it right."

 

[Flying Crane]

With respect to adults learning MA, has anybody observed that instructors have lower expectations, in general, for older people? I don't know, I'm just asking. As someone who, for various reasons, has had to do things later in life, my personal experience is that they do. Kids are good advertising, if they perform well. They can, potentially, win tournaments or perform impressive techniques. They have potential to represent the school in a positive way. Older people robably aren't going to win competitoons and, foe the most part, the majority of students are kids, so adults aren't going to attract students for a school. My experience has been that instructors just don't have an interest in whether older people succeed, so if they (older karate students) don't use proper technique, then instructors don't mind looking the other way. I think for a lot of schools and instructors, not just karate, adults simply represent extra money, and there are no real expectations for their performance. In fact, I had teacher (not karate), who actually told me just that. This teacher repeatedly would say, "well, you aren't going to do this for a living, so don't worry about doing it right."

There are things that can be fudged a bit due to physical limitations, including those connected with an aging adult. There are other things that cannot be fudged, or they simply do not work or could actually lead to injury to yourself.

You need to find a different school.

 

[isshinryuronin]

With respect to adults learning MA, has anybody observed that instructors have lower expectations, in general for older people? I don't know, I'm just asking. As someone who, for various reasons, has had to do things later in life, my personal experience is that they do. Kids are good advertising, if they perform well. They can, potentially, win tournaments or perform impressive techniques. They have potential to represent the school in a positive way. Older people robably aren't going to win competitoons and, foe the most part, the majority of students are kids, so adults aren't going to attract students for a school. My experience has been that instructors just don't have an interest in whether older people succeed, so if they (older karate students) don't use proper technique, then instructors don't mind looking the other way. I think for a lot of schools and instructors, not just karate, adults simplty represent extra money, with no real expectations.

No doubt this happens, hopefully not too often, that an instructor doesn't do his best for a student for selfish reasons as you wrote.

But, as I'm apt to do, I'll take the opposite view to discuss, and put the "blame" on the student. Some students are more ambitious than others. I would say, in general, younger ones are more ambitious, excited and physically oriented than older folks. This is a natural attribute of youth. Though, of course there are reluctant, less interested kids who may be sent there for "day care."

Older beginners usually have different MA goals than younger ones. They are usually there for exercise, an interesting activity, and/or basic self-defense. They're not there to become the next Chuck Norris. Note that I put the word "blame" in quotes in the above paragraph. I did because it's not wrong to have different, less ambitious goals and have lower expectations for the art. They have their own unique personal needs and reasons. Again this is OK - their reasons for being there are just as valid as anyone else's.

A good instructor will teach to the needs of the student. I would certainly spend more time with a student eager to develop their MA skills to a high degree and make MA a lifestyle than for a guy just wanting to work off a few pounds and stay active. These types of students may not be the driven perfectionists and hungry for deeper knowledge of the art. In other words, they are satisfied with a less intensive teaching approach.

As long as the instructor makes his experience, knowledge and skills available, it's up to the student to drink from the cup. When their cup is full, the instructor can stop pouring.