Philosophical question from a newbie

[Phoenix44]

Firstly, exactly how old or how impaired are you? I didn't start my MA journey until I was 41, and yes, I was able to do all the techniques without modification for age, gender, or decrepitude (American kenpo). I could kick over my head, very cool for photos, but from a practical standpoint, I really wouldn't want to. I got all my stripes and belts, taught for a few years. Also trained in choy lay fut kung fu, capoeira, and tai chi. I've been training for >25 years.

The point is, why do you want to train in martial arts? Not everyone is going to be a champion, no matter how young they are when they start, and not everyone needs to. That certainly wasn't my motivation. I'd suggest you take some classes, see how you feel, see if it meets your goals, and if you like the vibe.

And I agree with the others: if you think tai chi is something you're "relegated to," you need to train in the martial art of tai chi.

 

[Herenorthere]

Welcome to the forum. With all due respect, you are thinking way too much about it. You are older and have been around the block so use that analytical ability to find a school/dojo/gym that will fit YOUR needs. Find something that appeals to you and check out a class or two (or even a month) to see if it is a good fit with what you would expect to do with your spare time.

Studying any MA is going to take time and effort if you want to become proficient. It is also going to take a measure of sacrifice in time, energy and money so pick something that your accumulated experience equates to challenging but also enjoyable in some sense.

When in doubt, look at the instructor and if they are overweight and out of shape and you are looking to get into shape, you may not be at the right place.

I have actually noticed that many instructors are not as fit as I'd have expected. In fact, I've seen quite a few who are overweight, yet their social media pages tout the benefits of karate for weight loss. It is ironic.

 

[steverts]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

These are all interesting questions and observations. I’m going to give my thoughts and I understand they come from a different perspective. I mean no disrespect to your questions or any of the answers. Everything is valid. It’s easy to get philosophical about martial arts, but every day you spend being philosophical and trying to analyze is a day that you’re not training. I would suggest going to a few schools or Gyms or whatever they’re called that are not too far from where you live and watching or hopefully participating in a few classes. Find something you think you’ll enjoy that has good, experienced instructors and start going and training. I started training at a Hapkido dojang near my house when I was in my mid-40s. I had no idea what the martial art was. I can also tell from your comment about Hapkido that you don’t know what that martial art is either. It changed my life. The people in the school were all younger than me, but like family. Everyone knew how hard to use a technique on certain people because we’re all different and we were all concerned with safety. Hapkido techniques, when done with skill, can be extremely dangerous. I did hapkido for about 10 years at several different schools and then did Muay Thai for about 10 years. All along the way I had to cut back on what I could do because of my age and my body not tolerating techniques. The last few years I was strictly doing private lessons. I wouldn’t change it for anything. I would suggest stop thinking and start training.

 

[Herenorthere]

I have actually noticed that many instructors are not as fit as I'd have expected. In fact, I've seen quite a few who are overweight, yet their social media pages tout the benefits of karate for weight loss. It is ironic.

Anytime that I have seen someone practicing Tai chi on tv, it's been an elderly person. Most of thr marketing that MA schools do for Tai chi , does seem to be aimed at older people. So, there is a stereotype being perpetuated by the MA community, itself.

 

[Yamabushii]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

Culture in the West and East are obviously vastly different. There are different social expectations, diets, cultures, languages, etc. Lifestyles are very different. In the U.S. it's not cheap to run a proper martial arts school and that element ends up driving many decisions for a lot of martial arts schools, especially those that rely on them as their primary means of income. This often (not always) ends up resulting in accepting more students and being more mindful of student retention. Plus one can make the argument that in the U.S., instant gratification is sadly a big part of culture here. Lots of belts/colors/stripes and modifications to techniques and/or requirements for people are made for the sake of retention (retention = revenue). It's a lot easier to run a school when you don't have to worry about money. This is not the case for my school, but these are my observations.

Essentially it will just come down to the school/head instructor. Everyone has their own perspective, but it's not easy to say either are right or wrong. Just go to a school where the training and the culture are to your liking.

 

[Herenorthere]

These are all interesting questions and observations. I’m going to give my thoughts and I understand they come from a different perspective. I mean no disrespect to your questions or any of the answers. Everything is valid. It’s easy to get philosophical about martial arts, but every day you spend being philosophical and trying to analyze is a day that you’re not training. I would suggest going to a few schools or Gyms or whatever they’re called that are not too far from where you live and watching or hopefully participating in a few classes. Find something you think you’ll enjoy that has good, experienced instructors and start going and training. I started training at a Hapkido dojang near my house when I was in my mid-40s. I had no idea what the martial art was. I can also tell from your comment about Hapkido that you don’t know what that martial art is either. It changed my life. The people in the school were all younger than me, but like family. Everyone knew how hard to use a technique on certain people because we’re all different and we were all concerned with safety. Hapkido techniques, when done with skill, can be extremely dangerous. I did hapkido for about 10 years at several different schools and then did Muay Thai for about 10 years. All along the way I had to cut back on what I could do because of my age and my body not tolerating techniques. The last few years I was strictly doing private lessons. I wouldn’t change it for anything. I would suggest stop thinking and start training.

I understand what you're saying. I can over think things, that's for sure. The only reason that I had ever heard about Hapkido is that one of the schools that I contacted, told me that it's what is generally offered to ilder students. I had also spoken to a tkd instructor who said that he incorporates some hapkido into his training.

 

[Herenorthere]

Culture in the West and East are obviously vastly different. There are different social expectations, diets, cultures, languages, etc. Lifestyles are very different. In the U.S. it's not cheap to run a proper martial arts school and that element ends up driving many decisions for a lot of martial arts schools, especially those that rely on them as their primary means of income. This often (not always) ends up resulting in accepting more students and being more mindful of student retention. Plus one can make the argument that in the U.S., instant gratification is sadly a big part of culture here. Lots of belts/colors/stripes and modifications to techniques and/or requirements for people are made for the sake of retention (retention = revenue). It's a lot easier to run a school when you don't have to worry about money. This is not the case for my school, but these are my observations.

Essentially it will just come down to the school/head instructor. Everyone has their own perspective, but it's not easy to say either are right or wrong. Just go to a school where the training and the culture are to your liking.

I do agree and that was part of what I trying to say, diplomatically. I guess my real qu3stion is, are schools selling out in order to attract and retain students or is modification of technique and allowing for people's individual limitations/restrictions legitimate and acceptable?

 

[Darren]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

Was out for 27 years then got back at it at 57 years old, training before helped a lot but ya never know what you can do till ya try it! To your best ability should be the goal.

 

[Yamabushii]

I do agree and that was part of what I trying to say, diplomatically. I guess my real qu3stion is, are schools selling out in order to attract and retain students or is modification of technique and allowing for people's individual limitations/restrictions legitimate and acceptable?

Well what's your definition of "selling out"?

 

[Herenorthere]

I am going to try to post a link to a YouTube video, in which an older gentleman is taking a black belt test with a group of significantly younger people.
I commend him for his efforts, for getting out there with the younger kids and and for sticking with MA. However, in this case, I do have to ask whether the techniques that he was demonstrating, in a modified way, are worthy of not only, a black belt but of having any practical useful value to him, if he had to use them. He was, granted allowances for not having to do push-ups, sotups, jump kicks., and tumbles. OK,
I am NOT professing to be an expert but it seemed as though, he was, more or less, just throwing his legs out and not really kicking. He also appeared to be off balance, often. Again, I am NOT an instructor, nor do I claim to know as much as a n instructor. How could someone go thst far, with what looks like, such poor technique? Is this much of a "modification" acceptable?
For myself, I don't know whether I, personally, would continue, if I had that much difficulty performing a lot of moves.
If the video won't post, it's on YouTube under tang soo do black belt test, Texas.

 

[Herenorthere]

Well what's your definition of "selling out"?

For MA, I think, at the very least, even a modified technique should be useful, in the event thst you had to use it. If techniques become so modified thst they are either, not useful or so modified, thst they are also incorrect, even for a modified technique, but are still acceptable, that is selling out. I made a post about a video that I saw, in which an older guy was taking a belt test. He was essentially just flailing his legs in the air and not really kicking per se. To me, that seems like too much of a modification to be legitimate. Even at an advanced age, isn't karate supposed to teach Balance and some body control?

 

[steverts]

I understand what you're saying. I can over think things, that's for sure. The only reason that I had ever heard about Hapkido is that one of the schools that I contacted, told me that it's what is generally offered to ilder students. I had also spoken to a tkd instructor who said that he incorporates some hapkido into his training.

I get it!
Also keep in mind that in the martial arts, like every other area of society, there can a lot of bull. I wouldn’t expect to learn much quality Hapkido from going to a place that threw a little bit of Hapkido into a taekwondo class. But that’s OK! Go to a taekwondo class to learn that art. If you want hapkido …find experienced hapkido place (which unfortunately are very hard to find these days.) But the point being, watch aome classes, make a decision and get started. If I had tried to analyze all the “what ifs” and possibilities…I would have talked myself out of starting. I saw a nurse yesterday with a tattoo that said “action cures fear”. It’s the truth.
Good luck on your journey!

 

[Yamabushii]

For MA, I think, at the very least, even a modified technique should be useful, in the event thst you had to use it. If techniques become so modified thst they are either, not useful or so modified, thst they are also incorrect, even for a modified technique, but are still acceptable, that is selling out. I made a post about a video that I saw, in which an older guy was taking a belt test. He was essentially just flailing his legs in the air and not really kicking per se. To me, that seems like too much of a modification to be legitimate. Even at an advanced age, isn't karate supposed to teach Balance and some body control?

Then you're essentially just referring to what we call "McDojos". Whether a school chooses to modify a technique or not to accommodate people of different lifestyles is really a hard concept to argue which is why I say it's best left up to the instructor and the person wishing to train's choice if that school is a good fit for them or not. But when a school is teaching techniques that clearly won't work just to appease people, then that would fall under the McDojo category. So to answer your question, yes there are schools that do that, but there are also schools that aren't. Just continue to do what you do. Go in, see for yourself, and decide if it's for you or not. Ask questions. If instructors get upset at you for asking the right questions, then just know if they had nothing to hide, they wouldn't be afraid of you asking.

 

[Buka]

I am going to try to post a link to a YouTube video, in which an older gentleman is taking a black belt test with a group of significantly younger people.
I commend him for his efforts, for getting out there with the younger kids and and for sticking with MA. However, in this case, I do have to ask whether the techniques that he was demonstrating, in a modified way, are worthy of not only, a black belt but of having any practical useful value to him, if he had to use them. He was, granted allowances for not having to do push-ups, sotups, jump kicks., and tumbles. OK,
I am NOT professing to be an expert but it seemed as though, he was, more or less, just throwing his legs out and not really kicking. He also appeared to be off balance, often. Again, I am NOT an instructor, nor do I claim to know as much as a n instructor. How could someone go thst far, with what looks like, such poor technique? Is this much of a "modification" acceptable?
For myself, I don't know whether I, personally, would continue, if I had that much difficulty performing a lot of moves.
If the video won't post, it's on YouTube under tang soo do black belt test, Texas.

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

 

[2literal]

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that

That's a black belt test? I had no idea.

 

[Herenorthere]

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

No, it's with Grandmaster Beaudoin.

 

[Buka]

That's a black belt test? I had no idea.

I think it's just a class. I think.

 

[Herenorthere]

No, it the one with GMaster Beaudoin.

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

No, ai missed thst one. It is in TX but it's Grandmaster Beaudoin.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

Absolutely shameless.