Philosophical question from a newbie

[2literal]

No doubt this happens, hopefully not too often, that an instructor doesn't do his best for a student for selfish reasons as you wrote.

But, as I'm apt to do, I'll take the opposite view to discuss, and put the "blame" on the student. Some students are more ambitious than others. I would say, in general, younger ones are more ambitious, excited and physically oriented than older folks. This is a natural attribute of youth. Though, of course there are reluctant, less interested kids who may be sent there for "day care."

Older beginners usually have different MA goals than younger ones. They are usually there for exercise, an interesting activity, and/or basic self-defense. They're not there to become the next Chuck Norris. Note that I put the word "blame" in quotes in the above paragraph. I did because it's not wrong to have different, less ambitious goals and have lower expectations for the art. They have their own unique personal needs and reasons. Again this is OK - their reasons for being there are just as valid as anyone else's.

A good instructor will teach to the needs of the student. I would certainly spend more time with a student eager to develop their MA skills to a high degree and make MA a lifestyle than for a guy just wanting to work off a few pounds and stay active. These types of students may not be the driven perfectionists and hungry for deeper knowledge of the art. In other words, they are satisfied with a less intensive teaching approach.

As long as the instructor makes his experience, knowledge and skills available, it's up to the student to drink from the cup. When their cup is full, the instructor can stop

I had a similar experience. I thought I mentioned it before when you all wete telling me thst was ONLY in my thirties. Now that look,, I guess I didn't. I went back to drumming after a long hiatus and had a teacher who really just didn't give a darnn. I wasn't playing in a band, so I guess I wasn't worthy. So, I took up bass guitar, which I never played before. I had a female teacher, who was really high and mighty because she went 5o Berklee. So, she wouldn't teach me what I wanted to learn because I wasn't going to be a music major. It is a fairly common issue. I guess that means I'll have to visit a lot of karate schools.i'm following 5his thread because I'm not exactly a kid and I'm not going to compete after blowing out a knee.

 

[Buka]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

In our old dojo, I'd say thirty percent of the people testing failed their grading examinations.

After all, the signs up in the dojo said "Belt test" Tuesday night. And several times everyone failed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In our old dojo, I'd say thirty percent of the people testing failed their grading examinations.

After all, the signs up in the dojo said "Belt test" Tuesday night. And several times everyone failed.

I suppose that would give drive to students aside from just the belt itself.

 

[Buka]

I suppose that would give drive to students aside from just the belt itself.

Anytime someone joined the dojo the rules and ways of the place were explained and gone over in great detail. Especially about belt grades. It was done in a nice conversational manner, but each person was told that less than five percent of long time students would ever make the rank of black belt. I'm pretty sure it dissuaded some folks, but that's okay.

The tests themselves were the hardest, high energy workouts of the year. And everybody could take that class, even if they weren't going for a belt. The place was packed like sardines on those nights.
Talking to some of those folks decades later they always said it was the most fun workouts they ever had.

Nobody cared about belts. Those that did usually went someplace else, there were a lot of dojos around at that time, they seemed to be everywhere.

 

[Herenorthere]

Thanks for eall the feedback. When I was a kid, my cousins and I took some karate lessons. My cousins were learning Goju and I was taking Tang Soo. My family and my cousins' situations changed and none of us continued. I was in the Air Force and was always moving around, then marriage, kids, hwo were n't into katrate. So, lots of things were put on hold. I convinced my cousins to get back into it too. We were always competitive growing up but being older and more out of shape, I'm hoping to keep up with them. We're all trying to find the same type of school/style. I had my female cousin in another state talk to some instructors and she got the same types of responses. Now, that I've gotten ehr and my other cousin hung up on all of my concerns, I guess we'll give it a try and see who's the last man or woman standing.

 

[Yanli]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

I have been teaching Wing Chun for 41 years, and I live in the U.S, I have noticed that much has changed in the teaching and practicing for many different reasons. First and most important, which many are not aware of, Americans are considered weak and cannot endure the true training, secondly, Americans have become lawsuit happy. Instructors have have a business has many expenses, and has insure coverage to worry about, so the instructor has to run the business to best make a profit. Look at how people complain about every little thing, sue over every little thing, I hate to say it, but many people would not endure the old training methods. Changes are also from instructors feeling the changes are better, or they cannot do some of the techniques. There is a technique in Wing Chun that is almost lost because many cannot achieve it, so it is not taught. I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students, and I have not had a student to this day that will spend the time and energy to learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

 

[lklawson]

First and most important, which many are not aware of, Americans are considered weak and cannot endure the true training,o learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

Maybe it's just those choosing to do WC. I've noticed that people who practice wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, Judo, and Muay Thai tend to accumulate long term injuries from sustained hard training. BJJ guys often rack up lower back injuries and Judo folks tend toward borked knees and shoulders. Boxers collect facial cuts/bruises and long-termers are concerned with Dementia Pugilistica. MT get beat up all over, taking a lot of knees and elbows.

So maybe Americans aren't too "weak" to "endure the true training" maybe they're just not drawn to WC. Maybe WC has a reputation in the U.S. that puts off those who are not too "weak" to "endure the true training" and they take their happy, non-weak, butts to something that they believe is better suited for the "non-weak." Maybe WC in the U.S. changed to suit what it thought its customers wanted and they shot themselves in the foot (so to speak) by doing so?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Gyakuto]

Maybe it's just those choosing to do WC. I've noticed that people who practice wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, Judo, and Muay Thai tend to accumulate long term injuries from sustained hard training. BJJ guys often rack up lower back injuries and Judo folks tend toward borked knees and shoulders. Boxers collect facial cuts/bruises and long-termers are concerned with Dementia Pugilistica. MT get beat up all over, taking a lot of knees and elbows.

So maybe Americans aren't too "weak" to "endure the true training" maybe they're just not drawn to WC. Maybe WC has a reputation in the U.S. that puts off those who are not too "weak" to "endure the true training" and they take their happy, non-weak, butts to something that they believe is better suited for the "non-weak." Maybe WC in the U.S. changed to suit what it thought its customers wanted and they shot themselves in the foot (so to speak) by doing so?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I have to agree. My feeling is that European martial artists are fitter than ever and a notable subset are very, very fit!

 

[Buka]

I am biting my tongue so hard right now......

 

[Buka]

I have been teaching Wing Chun for 41 years, and I live in the U.S, I have noticed that much has changed in the teaching and practicing for many different reasons. First and most important, which many are not aware of, Americans are considered weak and cannot endure the true training, secondly, Americans have become lawsuit happy. Instructors have have a business has many expenses, and has insure coverage to worry about, so the instructor has to run the business to best make a profit. Look at how people complain about every little thing, sue over every little thing, I hate to say it, but many people would not endure the old training methods. Changes are also from instructors feeling the changes are better, or they cannot do some of the techniques. There is a technique in Wing Chun that is almost lost because many cannot achieve it, so it is not taught. I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students, and I have not had a student to this day that will spend the time and energy to learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I am biting my tongue so hard right now......

Is that the secret “only for the best” technique? I need to learn the fabled tongue bite. I’m not the best and I’m American so I guess I will go on wagging my tongue with the other mediocre talent.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have been teaching Wing Chun for 41 years, and I live in the U.S, I have noticed that much has changed in the teaching and practicing for many different reasons. First and most important, which many are not aware of, Americans are considered weak and cannot endure the true training, secondly, Americans have become lawsuit happy. Instructors have have a business has many expenses, and has insure coverage to worry about, so the instructor has to run the business to best make a profit. Look at how people complain about every little thing, sue over every little thing, I hate to say it, but many people would not endure the old training methods. Changes are also from instructors feeling the changes are better, or they cannot do some of the techniques. There is a technique in Wing Chun that is almost lost because many cannot achieve it, so it is not taught. I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students, and I have not had a student to this day that will spend the time and energy to learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students,

Would you mind to share more information on this?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Would you mind to share more information on this?

Certainly too deadly to be shared…

 

[Flying Crane]

There is a technique in Wing Chun that is almost lost because many cannot achieve it, so it is not taught. I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students, and I have not had a student to this day that will spend the time and energy to learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

If it is so difficult to learn, perhaps it is a stupid technique, with a very low probability of being successful and useful.

I bet I could invent a technique all by myself, that would be very very difficult to do and to use, and likely nobody would want to even try to get it to work.

I bet I could, I bet I could.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have been teaching Wing Chun for 41 years, and I live in the U.S, I have noticed that much has changed in the teaching and practicing for many different reasons. First and most important, which many are not aware of, Americans are considered weak and cannot endure the true training, secondly, Americans have become lawsuit happy. Instructors have have a business has many expenses, and has insure coverage to worry about, so the instructor has to run the business to best make a profit. Look at how people complain about every little thing, sue over every little thing, I hate to say it, but many people would not endure the old training methods. Changes are also from instructors feeling the changes are better, or they cannot do some of the techniques. There is a technique in Wing Chun that is almost lost because many cannot achieve it, so it is not taught. I cannot say the technique because it is only taught to the most advanced students, and I have not had a student to this day that will spend the time and energy to learn it. I do not know how many others out there that know the technique, but hopefully, it is still learned in China.

 

[Herenorthere]

I can understand instructors having liability concerns. Most of thr schools that I've seen, are marketing karate to adults as a way to get fit. I have read several reviews for karate schools by adults who got into karate in order to lose weight.
If that is the case, then, possibly, many adults are simply not able to perform certain techniques. If ischools are assuming that people are not fit enough, then maybe some have adapted their programs to allow for inclusivity and retention, as has been suggested already. I have no idea what goes on in other countries but for thr most part, and I'm not stating anything that anyone is not aware of, Americans are after the fact. We don't make health and fitness a priority until we've lost it. So, it would stand to reason that more out of shape people are drawn to karate, so technique wouldn't be a priority. It is a plausible scenario.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Certainly too deadly to be shared…

Some people may feel, "Why should I share valuable information online for free?" The way that I look at this is, willing to share information can benefit everybody.

 

[drop bear]

No. I mean that we don't have context for what's going on. I checked the youtoob link itself and, predictably, it was specifically posted to to mock the participants, again, without context.

First let me say that if what the folks recorded in the video are doing is what everyone assume they're doing, then no, I agree that it's, um... "unimpressive." But it may not actually be what is assumed.

What if the "sparring" in the first part wasn't actually "fight" sparring, or even competition/"point" sparring? What if it was intended to be a demonstration of speed, control, and accuracy? There is a form of Jogo do Paul on the islands where a match between rivals, or even enemies, can be held in which if the stick actually makes contact with the opponent then it is a sign that the person striking has poor control and technique; they should be able to almost hit but control it at the end point and the opponent is supposed to be skilled enough to know that if his opponent has wanted, he would have been hit. What if the "sparring" in this video is something like that? But we don't know because the only thing we see is people mocking it from a perspective of ignorance and assumption. The video ends with a "group kata" but it gets out of sync very quickly and a lot of the techniques look as if they don't have direct "fighting" application. The video ends with a video game style "chi ball" being launched from a double-fist punch. Well, what if the participants/judges don't care that they're out of sync? What if it is, literally, irrelevant to what they think is important? Maybe each person is going at the speed which is appropriate for them and they would loose respect (or points or whatever) if they tried to match their speed to the others in the group kata? And what if the point of the kata wasn't "fighting?" Ask 3 martial artists what the purpose of kata is and you'll get 5 different answers. What if the purpose of this particular kata isn't fighting but, instead, is to build cardio endurance? ...or maybe speed and precision? ...or maybe anything other than the assumption of "direct application fighting?"

Most of the people judging this video are making assumptions which might not be accurate. Maybe they are, but maybe they're not. It'd be a little bit like ridiculing a slow-fire Bullseye shooting competition based on "gunfighting" criteria, or even ISPC criteria, or maybe ridiculing Olympic style Archery based on the needs of Agincourt.

So, no, I don't mean "Dancing with the Stars'/Strictly" I mean maybe this isn't showing what you assume it is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Does it matter?

I mean it is not about one school it is about a trend. Which most people would have accepted happens without the video.

 

[drop bear]

Some people may feel, "Why should I share valuable information online for free?" The way that I look at this is, willing to share information can benefit everybody.

The potatoes story?

A guy grows award winning potatoes. But he shares his seeds with all his neighbouring farms.

"Doesn't that make you less likely to win?"

"No because potatoes need other potatoes to produce. So the better their potatoes are. The better mine is"

Or something like that