Philosophical question from a newbie

[Kemposhot]

I began studying martial arts in my teens, 17 to be exact. Back then, training with adults (in their 40’s) I would often see them joke as they would modify the technique. Often slightly, but still keep it effective. I never really thought twice about it.

The older students would also complain about soreness and bruising etc. Being younger, I couldn’t relate to that. Now that I’m in my mid 30’s, I completely understand what they meant. Recovery time takes a bit longer than it used too.

All of that being said, I wouldn’t shy away from something because of age. We’ve had students in their early 70’s who can hit harder and more precious than younger students. It’s true in competition age can play a factor. But is that your goal? From a self defense standpoint, you want a fight to be over quickly and effectively. I think that age is much less of a factor then.

 

[isshinryuronin]

We’ve had students in their early 70’s ...... From a self defense standpoint, you want a fight to be over quickly and effectively. I think that age is much less of a factor then.

If only this was true! Especially if more than one attacker. You must also factor in durability in an aged person. You've mentioned that in your mid 30's injuries/bruising are more profound. How much more so when you're double that age?

But you're right that you want a fight to be over quickly as an older person (or any age). I'm in excellent condition for a 71-year-old but I'm not delusional. One full minute of real hitting, getting hit and tussling against a 20 or 30-year-old I think is my limit, though my preference would be much less than that. Carrying a weapon you are familiar with can be a good equalizer for a senior citizen.

So, in a self-defense situation the strategy must be this: Evasion and immediately attack the most vulnerable targets with the most disabling techniques with full power. A senior citizen cannot afford to be merciful against a serious thug. Almost weekly, lately, I've read of many attacks on older people that the attackers see as some sort of perverse fun. These thugs deserve whatever damage an old helpless man like me can deliver.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

So let us say we have a student and they cannot raise their foot above the hip and most likely knee cannot go above the hip either.
So a front kick or side kick or turning kick to the head or ribs is out of the question.

And yet these techniques can be taught to attack the knee.

So it all depends upon the art and the instructor.

Let us assume the the Instructor wants students to pay the bills and not for the benefit of the student.
And if they are willing to accommodate student age and restrictions then this shows even if they are only concerned about themselves they are also open minded to be able to solve problems / issues.
One could learn from them.

If the same instructor also is concerned about the student and his own well being then they are most likely just a human being trying to share their passion and p[ay their bills.

Of course any instructor can be bad.

If the student cannot learn from the methodology of the instructor then it might be a bad fit, and they might find a different instructor of the same art and learn from them.

 

[Gyakuto]

Whichever endeavour one undertakes it will always have your own unique cultural/physical/mental spin upon it. You cannot dissociate ones ‘self’ from the discipline you are trying to learn. If the art you have chosen to study insists you must be able to kick to….head-height…convincingly and with no deviation from this rule, then it is probably far too rigid and perhaps you should look for something else (I would really hope a reputable association wouldn’t be that rigid).

In learning the martial arts, good teachers, as part of their teaching process, demonstrate and help you internalise an ideal ‘model’ of best practise. It is then your task as a devotee of that art, to try and conform your performance asymptotically to that ideal. Of course that is an impossible task because of ones own mental/physical/cultural differences but you try your very best and perhaps it’s within this continuous earnest effort that the ‘rewards’ of practise are manifested.

 

[WaterGal]

It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.

Honestly, I think this is a romanticization of Asian cultures.

Also, here's a video from a Korean reality show, showing a demonstration team of senior citizen Taekwondo color belts (I set the link to start where they come in). They demonstrate punching in the air and board breaking. IMO, you can learn martial arts at almost any age.

 

[Holmejr]

Some folk do this for self defense and some for exercise. Some see their world as dangerous or some have experienced danger. At 67, I appreciate the added flexibility, suppleness and gracefulness that I gain from the MA’s. At 25 I could inside crescent kick and literally hit my opponent head standing 6 inches in front of me, now not so much LOL, but that doesn’t negate all the other benefits. You just have to figure it out for yourself. Enjoy the journey.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think that age is much less of a factor then.

Age is always a factor for attackers. Most attack old people because they know that most old people can't fight back. As you get older your mobility will take priority so take care of your mobility now so that you'll have it later. do exercises that help strengthen the components that make up and support your joints. As for training to activities that help you with your timing. When you are young your timing is often based on speed and what you see coming at you. When you get older your Vineland of timing is going to change because your speed will change. Just recently I've accepted that my speed is no longer the same. Now I do speed exercises that I never had to do before and I have to time my opponent differently now.

My MMA partner is younger and stronger than me abs faster than me in reaction time. The old way I reseed to time things is no longer viable. Now I have to learn a new way of timing. All of this is because I'm much older now.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Now I have to learn a new way of timing. All of this is because I'm much older now.

Well, not so much "new" as being able to perceive your opponent's intentions sooner so as to give you a head start. Luckily, being older, one has the experience and spiritual bearing (ideally) to interpret the micro signals more effectively.

The other method is to seize control of the timing yourself and put opponent off his game. Feints, distance and angle changes and so forth can cause hesitation in the opponent's attack as you change the parameters just before he executes. This will gain you a half beat of timing to mitigate your slower speed.

Now I do speed exercises that I never had to do before

Agree. It takes more work just to stay in the same place, until time wins out and we slide ever downward. This is when we need to practice our sense of humor.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, not so much "new" as being able to perceive your opponent's intentions sooner so as to give you a head start

Yep. This is what it is for me. That reaction time just isn't there for me. His over hand right would have knocked me out at least 20 times already.

 

[Buka]

People are different. Ages, sizes, personalities, strength/weaknesses and on and on.
People also learn differently.

It's why a good instructor will teach people differently. Teaching - it's all about the student.
Or should be.

 

[isshinryuronin]

His over hand right would have knocked me out at least 20 times already.

Just close your eyes and fire one out. Out of 20 tries you should beat him to the punch once! You'll at least have that satisfaction as they carry you out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just close your eyes and fire one out. Out of 20 tries you should beat him to the punch once! You'll at least have that satisfaction as they carry you out.

ha ha ha. I think I rather see when I get hit lol. I got something for him though. I've analyzed that over hand right and asked him to throw a couple at me. I didn't block them, I just watched them come in as I watched. I think I have my timing points on when I need to strike or move.

I won't be using a high stance the next time we spar. I'll be in mid stance so I'm expecting the outcome to be a little different. I haven't thrown too much kung fu at him yet. So I'm not totally sad on having a slower reaction time. I'll start recording the sparring session once I start using my kung fu on him. Other than front kick, crescent kick, and half moon kick. He wasn't been getting much kung fu for me. But that will change when I hit that mid range stance. This is where I normally spar and where I normally feel good in doing kung fu. I'll be in my confort zone. He's a tough guy so I shouldn't have to hold back on my strikes like I have had to in the past. I should be able to relax and just let things flow. I'm looking forward to that.

 

[Buka]

ha ha ha. I think I rather see when I get hit lol. I got something for him though. I've analyzed that over hand right and asked him to throw a couple at me. I didn't block them, I just watched them come in as I watched. I think I have my timing points on when I need to strike or move.

I won't be using a high stance the next time we spar. I'll be in mid stance so I'm expecting the outcome to be a little different. I haven't thrown too much kung fu at him yet. So I'm not totally sad on having a slower reaction time. I'll start recording the sparring session once I start using my kung fu on him. Other than front kick, crescent kick, and half moon kick. He wasn't been getting much kung fu for me. But that will change when I hit that mid range stance. This is where I normally spar and where I normally feel good in doing kung fu. I'll be in my confort zone. He's a tough guy so I shouldn't have to hold back on my strikes like I have had to in the past. I should be able to relax and just let things flow. I'm looking forward to that.

I'm kind of confused (a fairly normal state for me) if you're not using Kung Fu, what are you using?

Unless you're totally sandbagging him, which I can appreciate with an appropriate chuckle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm kind of confused (a fairly normal state for me) if you're not using Kung Fu, what are you using?

Long story short.

Training program.
Step 1: Train Kung Fu in High stance (This is where I was doing my training)
Step 2: Train kung fu in Mid level stance (This is where I will be doing my next training)
Step 3. Train kung fu in low stance.

Step 1: A lot of Jow Ga doesn't work at this height because a lot of stuff breaks. I don't think it's a Jow Ga problem. I think it's a limitation for any system that has to deal with grappling.

Kung Fu that I've used with success while sparring against the MMA guy
1. Front Kick
2. Shadowless kick
3. Toe kick
4. Front snap kick
5. Side kick
6. Crescent kick
7. Half moon kick.
8. One throw

#1-5 I don't consider Kung Fu. To me those are universal kicks that can be found in many TMA systems.

#6 and #7 were successful in landing but I'm throwing it a lot higher than I prefer. In an actual fight where I'm trying to hurt someone with the kick, I wouldn't throw it while in a high stance. Have moon kick was ok, but I couldn't feel the same power connection that I feel at the mid level stance.

The grappling that I do on the ground is not Kung Fu. I'm only using what I understand of grappling. I know what my sparring partner wants to achieve, my goal is to deny him that goal and I do that by working out things on the fly while He's maneuvering, The one thing I told the MMA guy was that I would do the ground fighting so he can get a chance to work his techniques. That way he gets a chance to work his techniques as well. Striking is about 10% power stand up grappling is about 60% power an ground fighting is 100%.

I will be able to do more of my Kung fu at the mid and low level stances. That's where I'll be able to do things like sweeps, foot hooks, and trips, and my big wheel punches. Will I try to spar in the high stance again? I doubt it. At this point I think it's stupid. It just opens me up too much.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unless you're totally sandbagging him, which I can appreciate with an appropriate chuckle.

My nickname in my school was Pearl Harbor. My Sifu was a military guy and he said my sparring reminds him of how the Japanese acted like they wanted peace and then they bombed pearl harbor in the same breath. At first I thought, dude that's messed up. Then I remember that I've always told people that I wanted to look like a harmless stick to my enemy's so that they will approach me unprepared, only to find out after the bite that I'm venomous.

So if you are asking me if I'm deceiving him. Yeah, I am. Except when I'm on the ground wrestling him. I can hold him off for about two minutes then I run out of gas. I think it will change once I start lowering my stance. He won't have as clean of an entry as he did when I was standing tall. It's no secret that I don't ground fight. I've been training hard so that my strength and endurance is better, But we are talking about 20 year old vs a 50 year old, so he's going to have an advantage in that area. I'm also 30 lbs overweight so that doesn't help me at all. But it's all a process. I would like to see how my current strength performs in a lighter body.

 

[Alan0354]

If only this was true! Especially if more than one attacker. You must also factor in durability in an aged person. You've mentioned that in your mid 30's injuries/bruising are more profound. How much more so when you're double that age?

But you're right that you want a fight to be over quickly as an older person (or any age). I'm in excellent condition for a 71-year-old but I'm not delusional. One full minute of real hitting, getting hit and tussling against a 20 or 30-year-old I think is my limit, though my preference would be much less than that. Carrying a weapon you are familiar with can be a good equalizer for a senior citizen.

So, in a self-defense situation the strategy must be this: Evasion and immediately attack the most vulnerable targets with the most disabling techniques with full power. A senior citizen cannot afford to be merciful against a serious thug. Almost weekly, lately, I've read of many attacks on older people that the attackers see as some sort of perverse fun. These thugs deserve whatever damage an old helpless man like me can deliver.

Yep, I carry a cane everywhere I go now. I don't rely on bare knuckle anymore. I use kick boxing as aerobics only, practicing stick fight is the main thing. I also have a pepper spray in my left pocket and a pocket knife in my right pocket in case I lose my cane( can happen, even to the best stick fighter, in fact it's very common).

I am 69, not far behind you.

 

[Alan0354]

Age is always a factor for attackers. Most attack old people because they know that most old people can't fight back. As you get older your mobility will take priority so take care of your mobility now so that you'll have it later. do exercises that help strengthen the components that make up and support your joints. As for training to activities that help you with your timing. When you are young your timing is often based on speed and what you see coming at you. When you get older your Vineland of timing is going to change because your speed will change. Just recently I've accepted that my speed is no longer the same. Now I do speed exercises that I never had to do before and I have to time my opponent differently now.

My MMA partner is younger and stronger than me abs faster than me in reaction time. The old way I reseed to time things is no longer viable. Now I have to learn a new way of timing. All of this is because I'm much older now.

How old are you? you don't look old!!! My guess from you videos is you are in 40s, no more. Don't even talk to me about OLD!!!!

I feel I only lose a little bit of strength, but lose speed. I spend more time hitting the bag lighter, just heavy tapping, but faster to get back some speed. When I look at my video I posted punching, I think I am ok with the strength in the hitting, it's just slow. So instead going through the bag, I am concentrate in hit and pull back and throw the follower punch faster. relax my arms more.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How old are you? you don't look old!!! My guess from you videos is you are in 40s, no more. Don't even talk to me about OLD!!!!

I'm 50. As much as I would like to deny that my age doesn't affect me physically. It does. Mentally I don't feel or act what I think 50 years old is. I still have a 30 year old mindset in a lot of things but physically, I feel it sometimes. Longer heal times, missing a step in my reaction, movement's not being as crisp as I would like for them to be. For me it's like everything is off and I want to beat myself up about as having slack training, but then I come to reality and accept that I'm not 40 or 30 anymore. It doesn't mean that I should act old. It just means that I need to change my fight strategy to compensate for the "challenges that I have now." I can't use that same timing that I used to have. I have to adapt and apply my techniques based on where I am now and not where I was in the past.

Don't get me wrong. I don't feel negative about it. I know people who are the same age as me who can't do what I can physically do. Other than my high blood pressure. I'm doing fairly well with all things considered. Plus I still have plenty of new things to nail my MMA sparring partner with. I think he's at a level where I can hit him a little harder. But I will ask him first, he's probably worried about breaking me, while I'm worried about breaking him. lol But with all that said. No one escapes age if they are lucky. I personally would like to say the same things I'm saying now at the age of 90.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I look at my video I posted punching, I think I am ok with the strength in the hitting, it's just slow. So instead going through the bag, I am concentrate in hit and pull back and throw the follower punch faster. relax my arms more.

I'm not worried about power. That's easy in my book, that doesn't fade as fast as speed and reaction time. I use resistance bands to train my speed. I'll let you know how it works and if it's worth the effort. I should know in about 2 more months without question so long as I train it at least 3 times a week.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I'd been researching martial arts for a while. I looked at a few different styles and schools. I recently had a tsd lesson. I had a discussion with the instructor later and I would like some feedback from other martial arts practitioners. His answer was, basically, the same as answers I had gotten from other instructors in other disciplines, while I was researching. If the instructor happens ot be on this forum, I mean no disrespect by posting my questions on this forum.

I'm a a relatively older individual. After watching some youtube videos, I began to wonder if other adults, who started their training later in life, were able to actually perform all ofthe moves, necessary to prorgress to higher levels of proficiency. I was told that some moves can be modified and that others may be omitted entirely. These responses are what prompted my post.
From my limited knowledge, Eastern and Western cultures are, obviously, very different. Karate is an Eastern art, for the most part. It's my understanding that Karate teaches physical AND mental discipline. It is also my understanding, that Eastern culture, in general, sets higher expectations for performance than Western, or, at least, sets higher standards than American society.
If someone truly believes in the art that he/she is practicing, how is it possible to put a Western spin on an Eastern art and just modify or omit moves, to remain beholden not only, to the inclusive mindset that we embrace in this country, but also to the complacency about mediocrity, that characterizes our society? Or, am I misinterpreting?
Or, is it only necessary to focus on the individual, and ensuring that each person reaches his/her potential, within the constraints of his/her own abilities If that is the case, then the belt system would seem to be meaningless. If you are required to perform certain moves at a certain level of proficiency but you make allowances for each individual's potential for achieving those levels, then it would seem that awarding belts is a subjective process.
I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

Welcome to the forum. With all due respect, you are thinking way too much about it. You are older and have been around the block so use that analytical ability to find a school/dojo/gym that will fit YOUR needs. Find something that appeals to you and check out a class or two (or even a month) to see if it is a good fit with what you would expect to do with your spare time.

Studying any MA is going to take time and effort if you want to become proficient. It is also going to take a measure of sacrifice in time, energy and money so pick something that your accumulated experience equates to challenging but also enjoyable in some sense.

When in doubt, look at the instructor and if they are overweight and out of shape and you are looking to get into shape, you may not be at the right place. Good luck.