Philosophical question from a newbie

[Flying Crane]

I couldn't find it. Unless this is it.....

Is that the one?

I think this is an example of where the belt actually does a disservice (obviously unintentional). I imagine the fellow in the video never thought the video would become the target of general ridicule in an Internet forum.

One real problem with the belts is that it can send a message (again, unintentionally) that if you don’t make it to black belt, then somehow your training is a failure. Then, on top of that is the message that first Dan is just the beginning, you haven’t really learned the shizzle until you have reached third or fourth or whatever higher Dan, so again, your training is a failure or you have fallen short if you don’t reach that level.

This leads to schools selling the path to black belt as a commodity. And everyone who signs up and pays for that commodity eventually gets that black belt sooner or later (usually sooner) whether deserved or not.

In my opinion, there ought to be plenty of material within the lower belt curriculum that, if taught well and trained diligently, should serve to give one solid self defense or fighting skills. But the message is: you need to reach black belt or your training has fallen short and isn’t yet worth much.

Instead, anyone ought to be able to train to whatever level they are capable, and make that a lifetime of study and training, even if they never pass beyond the first couple of underbelts. If someone never learns the “higher” kata, or the “advanced” techniques, so what? It shouldn’t be needed in order for someone to be functional and capable.

If someone must reach black belt levels, or even higher black belt levels, before the system gives them the tools to be functional, then I say the system itself isn’t worth much or the teaching is lousy.

 

[Buka]

I think this is an example of where the belt actually does a disservice (obviously unintentional). I imagine the fellow in the video never thought the video would become the target of general ridicule in an Internet forum.

One real problem with the belts is that it can send a message (again, unintentionally) that if you don’t make it to black belt, then somehow your training is a failure. Then, on top of that is the message that first Dan is just the beginning, you haven’t really learned the shizzle until you have reached third or fourth or whatever higher Dan, so again, your training is a failure or you have fallen short if you don’t reach that level.

This leads to schools selling the path to black belt as a commodity. And everyone who signs up and pays for that commodity eventually gets that black belt sooner or later (usually sooner) whether deserved or not.

In my opinion, there ought to be plenty of material within the lower belt curriculum that, if taught well and trained diligently, should serve to give one solid self defense or fighting skills. But the message is: you need to reach black belt or your training has fallen short and isn’t yet worth much.

Instead, anyone ought to be able to train to whatever level they are capable, and make that a lifetime of study and training, even if they never pass beyond the first couple of underbelts. If someone never learns the “higher” kata, or the “advanced” techniques, so what? It shouldn’t be needed in order for someone to be functional and capable.

If someone must reach black belt levels, or even higher black belt levels, before the system gives them the tools to be functional, then I say the system itself isn’t worth much or the teaching is lousy.

One of the things I'd do every month was have everyone take of their belt at the start of a class, then put on someone else's belt of a different rank. Black Belts would be wearing a yellow belt, white belts wearing a black etc. I'd do the same, usually wearing a green - because I always liked that rank.

What it did for everyone was reinforce our attitude and what we preached - "that the belt you wear doesn't mean squat, go do some pushups then get to work."

Worked pretty well, nobody gave a damn about rank.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

No, ai missed thst one. It is in TX but it's Grandmaster Beaudoin.

I found the video, but I’m not going to post it here. I don’t believe that the gentleman in question posted the video or did anything to promote himself as an expert martial artist, so I don’t want to be showing him off for internet ridicule.

if there’s an issue with this person testing for his black belt, it’s not that techniques have been modified for his age or physical limitations. (Almost) everything they were doing for that test has legitimate variations which could be performed by someone of his age, with his limitations in flexibility and conditioning. The possibly relevant issue is that he just isn’t very good. His skill looks white belt level, even doing modified technique. I didn’t see any signs which would indicate some sort of neurological disorder which would cause a lack of coordination, he just looks like a beginner.

Why do I only say this is a ”possible” issue when they have someone with beginner level skills testing for black belt? Because it depends on what the black belt rank is used to indicate in that academy. Most of the other students looked to be teenagers or young adults. Judging from their average skill level and the techniques being demonstrated, I would guess most of them had been training for 2-3 years and that a lot of what they were being tested on was essentially memorization. Their punches, kicks, and stances looked a lot better than those of the older* gentleman, but that may be a function of an athletic 15-year old being able to learn new movement skills faster than a 50/60-something couch potato. When they demonstrated their “self-defense” techniques they were clearly just trying to show that they could remember the steps, but they generally didn’t seem to have the understanding or skill which would make any of the techniques functional.

Based on al, that, it’s possible that the criteria for a first degree black belt in that school is to show up to class for a couple of years and memorize a set list of forms and techniques, rather than showing a particular degree of skill or fighting ability. I’ve seen more than one school like that. In that case the person you were commenting on may very well have met the standards for a black belt at that school. If you think that “black belt” should be an indicator of an advanced martial artist with genuine fighting ability then you might not like that, but you aren’t running that school. As long as they aren’t advertising these students as deadly bad-asses, then I don’t think it’s any of my business how they use their rank system.

*(I say older rather than old, because I can’t tell exactly how old he is. Somewhere between 50 and 65 would be my guess. He might be younger than I am and I can still throw head kicks and still spar pro fighters on occasion.)

 

[Herenorthere]

My

I found the video, but I’m not going to post it here. I don’t believe that the gentleman in question posted the video or did anything to promote himself as an expert martial artist, so I don’t want to be showing him off for internet ridicule.

if there’s an issue with this person testing for his black belt, it’s not that techniques have been modified for his age or physical limitations. (Almost) everything they were doing for that test has legitimate variations which could be performed by someone of his age, with his limitations in flexibility and conditioning. The possibly relevant issue is that he just isn’t very good. His skill looks white belt level, even doing modified technique. I didn’t see any signs which would indicate some sort of neurological disorder which would cause a lack of coordination, he just looks like a beginner.

Why do I only say this is a ”possible” issue when they have someone with beginner level skills testing for black belt? Because it depends on what the black belt rank is used to indicate in that academy. Most of the other students looked to be teenagers or young adults. Judging from their average skill level and the techniques being demonstrated, I would guess most of them had been training for 2-3 years and that a lot of what they were being tested on was essentially memorization. Their punches, kicks, and stances looked a lot better than those of the older* gentleman, but that may be a function of an athletic 15-year old being able to learn new movement skills faster than a 50/60-something couch potato. When they demonstrated their “self-defense” techniques they were clearly just trying to show that they could remember the steps, but they generally didn’t seem to have the understanding or skill which would make any of the techniques functional.

Based on al, that, it’s possible that the criteria for a first degree black belt in that school is to show up to class for a couple of years and memorize a set list of forms and techniques, rather than showing a particular degree of skill or fighting ability. I’ve seen more than one school like that. In that case the person you were commenting on may very well have met the standards for a black belt at that school. If you think that “black belt” should be an indicator of an advanced martial artist with genuine fighting ability then you might not like that, but you aren’t running that school. As long as they aren’t advertising these students as deadly bad-asses, then I don’t think it’s any of my business how they use their rank system.

*(I say older rather than old, because I can’t tell exactly how old he is. Somewhere between 50 and 65 would be my guess. He might be younger than I am and I can still throw head kicks and still spar pro fighters on occasion.)

My intention was to show that there are situations in which it seems like poor technique is acceptable. I wonder if it is, in his case, because he is also doing a modified technique. So, maybe I'm wondering if, in the case od older students, instructors are more lenient because those students probably won't be competing. I have no idea what the rationale is but I don't think that modification should devolve I to poor technique and Iif it does, to me, that should not be acceptable.

 

[Lyandor]

I don't think focusing too much on general expectation is good no matter what martial art you take. I started taekwondo in my early 20s and got my first black belt 3 years later. I still couldn't do splits during this time which i consider during my prime, but I could kick everyone's head no problem during spars. Normally when people hear of taekwondo black belt, these things come to mind:

1. Awesome aerial kicks, which i can't do.
2. Vertical Side kicks, which I can't do too.
3. Little to no punch techniques or training, but I train my punches regularly.

I went into the martial art with the intent to do it rather than competitions so I do not let all those general expectations get to me.

Fast forward to now, I am 3rd Dan in Taekwondo and orange belt in Hapkido. The Hapkido school I train in is compromised mostly of Taekwondo Black Belts, added in the curriculum are rolls, break falls, grapples and punches. Based on my experience, Hapkido is tougher, especially in the sparring setting. The rolls and break falls are physically demanding, there are kicks you perform from near squat position. I think this is much more difficult for elderly with no prior exercise experience.

But at the end of the day, I chose the pace I want to train in (2 hours in my 20s and only 40 mins a day currently), examinations (I have been almost a year late in my hapkido orange belt exam), techniques (too many techniques too cram into my schedule). I believe learning any martial art is good as long as you can properly pace yourself, especially to prevent unecessary injuries. Not all of us are going to the ring, competitions or underground matches.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My

My intention was to show that there are situations in which it seems like poor technique is acceptable. I wonder if it is, in his case, because he is also doing a modified technique. So, maybe I'm wondering if, in the case od older students, instructors are more lenient because those students probably won't be competing. I have no idea what the rationale is but I don't think that modification should devolve I to poor technique and Iif it does, to me, that should not be acceptable.

His techniques weren’t modified (other than kicking lower than the younger students). His technique was just beginner level bad. Kicking lower didn’t make the technique bad. If the techniques had been modified in some other way to suit his physical limitations, that wouldn’t have made them bad either. My best guess as to why his technique was bad (compared to other students of the same rank) is that the instructor was promoting based on memorization and time in grade rather than on skill.

There are other possibilities. Maybe the instructor is just happy to see the older guy show up and make the effort and doesn’t care about what he achieves in terms of skill. Maybe he’s just used to teaching kids and doesn’t have the teaching skills to guide an uncoordinated older person to a higher level of body awareness and coordination. Maybe the school has large classes and he doesn’t have the time to devote the individual attention to helping one student who is significantly less coordinated and athletic then the rest of the students.

I’m not personally a fan of any of those options. I place a much, much higher value on functional skill than on memorizing a curriculum. I don’t find time in grade + memorization to be a useful basis for a rank system. I’m a firm believer that most people the age of the gentleman in the video have the capacity to develop a much higher degree of martial skill than he demonstrates. And I started the martial arts in the bottom 1% of the general population or lower in terms of natural talent and athleticism, so I will always spend the extra time and effort to help students who are struggling to develop the necessary skills and attributes for the arts I teach.

But it’s not my school. If the older student in the video is happy with the training experience he is having and the instructor is happy with having someone of that skill level represent his expected standard for wearing that rank in his academy, then they’re both getting what they want. As long as the student isn’t being told that he has reached the level of having functional fighting ability with what he’s practicing, then I won’t criticize.

 

[Buka]

It's frustrating not knowing what video you guys are discussing. But keep it to yourselves, me and the dog are taking our ball and going home. Harumph, harumph.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's frustrating not knowing what video you guys are discussing. But keep it to yourselves, me and the dog are taking our ball and going home. Harumph, harumph.

You probably aren't missing much. It sounds like a familiar topic.

 

[zzj]

I didn't grow up receiving trophies just for participating. Not everybody can play tennis. That's why there's pickleball. Should olderor impaired people, who can't lift their legs above their heads, be relegated to hapkido or tai chi?
I'd like some feedback from those who are more knowledgable and who have actually been practicing and/or teaching for a while.

Relegated to Tai chi? That's fine by me.

 

[Gyakuto]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's frustrating not knowing what video you guys are discussing. But keep it to yourselves, me and the dog are taking our ball and going home. Harumph, harumph.

Sent you a message.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think this is an example of where the belt actually does a disservice (obviously unintentional). I imagine the fellow in the video never thought the video would become the target of general ridicule in an Internet forum.

One real problem with the belts is that it can send a message (again, unintentionally) that if you don’t make it to black belt, then somehow your training is a failure. Then, on top of that is the message that first Dan is just the beginning, you haven’t really learned the shizzle until you have reached third or fourth or whatever higher Dan, so again, your training is a failure or you have fallen short if you don’t reach that level.

This leads to schools selling the path to black belt as a commodity. And everyone who signs up and pays for that commodity eventually gets that black belt sooner or later (usually sooner) whether deserved or not.

In my opinion, there ought to be plenty of material within the lower belt curriculum that, if taught well and trained diligently, should serve to give one solid self defense or fighting skills. But the message is: you need to reach black belt or your training has fallen short and isn’t yet worth much.

Instead, anyone ought to be able to train to whatever level they are capable, and make that a lifetime of study and training, even if they never pass beyond the first couple of underbelts. If someone never learns the “higher” kata, or the “advanced” techniques, so what? It shouldn’t be needed in order for someone to be functional and capable.

If someone must reach black belt levels, or even higher black belt levels, before the system gives them the tools to be functional, then I say the system itself isn’t worth much or the teaching is lousy.

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

This is a joke right?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Do people in US martial arts clubs ever fail grading examinations? Surely this is the key to ensuring quality practitioners rising through the ranks? From over here, it sounds like that the grading examination is merely a formality to obtaining the next rank up! Students of an art will thus naturally ‘find their own level’ and should be worthy of that level.

My suspicion is that the whole system in some countries is about making money rather than producing good students. That’s absolutely fine if that’s an associations raison d’etre but that philosophy will lead to this-

On the other hand, a more ‘rigorous’ promotion system will lead to a higher rate of attrition and only 2 or 3 students training with their teacher in a chilly church hall!

This might be top ten worst crap I have seen.

 

[Gyakuto]

This is a joke right?

The video? I believe it’s a real ’Koroddy’ group but I’ve never been able to identify them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The video? I believe it’s a real ’Koroddy’ group but I’ve never been able to identify them.

Oh the humanity…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The video? I believe it’s a real ’Koroddy’ group but I’ve never been able to identify them.

Thanks for that, I nearly lost my breath laughing at the music they chose.

 

[Gyakuto]

Well…they’re having fun, I suppose!

 

[Gyakuto]

Thanks for that, I nearly lost my breath laughing at the music they chose.

When I’m feeling a little blue or despondent about my MA abilities, I watch this to cheer myself up!!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well…they’re having fun, I suppose!

Sure, ok. I had some fun watching the videos posted in this thread. This stuff never gets old, I see these types of videos often represented as serious martial arts. This one couldn’t possibly be taken as serious. It looks more like a theme party, or flash mob stuff.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

When I’m feeling a little blue or despondent about my MA abilities, I watch this to cheer myself up!!

I’m not the best, but I am realistic. I just hope they arent being told that they are now killers, or ready for the ring. If it’s all just for fun, that’s fine, but there are better ways to spend their time.