Parker vs. Tracy Systems?

[Sapper6]

Let's be a little bit careful about where we are going with this. Interesting discussion, but we might be drifting a little close to "my style is great and yours sucks", which is exactly what the originator of this thread asked us all to avoid.

i don't see that happening here.

there are many,many comparisons of these two systems' techniques in the thread and across MT. agree?

where the thread is going now is somewhere entirely different, but not necessarily wrong. he's asked the "system vs. system question". and if you are going to fairly assess any two things, you must consider ALL things; not just techniques, forms, and belts.

the link i've posted above links to an article written by a Tracy, a rather prominant one. i posted it so that readers have an understanding of what honor, integrity, and respect is, and is not.

 

[Flying Crane]

i don't see that happening here.

there are many,many comparisons of these two systems' techniques in the thread and across MT. agree?

where the thread is going now is somewhere entirely different, but not necessarily wrong. he's asked the "system vs. system question". and if you are going to fairly assess any two things, you must consider ALL things; not just techniques, forms, and belts.

the link i've posted above links to an article written by a Tracy, a rather prominant one. i posted it so that readers have an understanding of what honor, integrity, and respect is, and is not.

Agree, i'm not trying to stifle discussion. Some things seemed like they were getting close to "Tracy bashing", which seemed like it could lead down a road of nastyness. Just thought I'd make a comment before it went there. Of course I'm not a moderator so what I say about it doesn't mean anything anyway.

 

[Sapper6]

Agree, i'm not trying to stifle discussion. Some things seemed like they were getting close to "Tracy bashing", which seemed like it could lead down a road of nastyness. Just thought I'd make a comment before it went there. Of course I'm not a moderator so what I say about it doesn't mean anything anyway.

yeah man, i see what you were saying. no worries.

i only posted the article for the simple reason that if people are going to compare things, they need as much as possible; and that means viewpoints and opinions originating from at least one of the camps. although i searched far and wide across the net, i couldn't find a single article written by an EPAK practitioner that anything close to what was linked to above. if anyone else does, i emplore them to post it.

please don't construe what i've posted above as support for EPAK. i don't even study it.

 

[Flying Crane]

yeah man, i see what you were saying. no worries.

i only posted the article for the simple reason that if people are going to compare things, they need as much as possible; and that means viewpoints and opinions originating from at least one of the camps. although i searched far and wide across the net, i couldn't find a single article written by an EPAK practitioner that anything close to what was linked to above. if anyone else does, i emplore them to post it.

please don't construe what i've posted above as support for EPAK. i don't even study it.

I actually think posting the link to the articles was good and informative for people who might not have seen them before, so my comment wasn't even aimed at that. It just seemed like a couple reactions to the articles might have been heading toward hostility and I didn't want it to turn into an argument that moved away from the spirit of the thread. Maybe I was reading too much into what was being said and I am wrong about it, but I just wanted to remind us all that we are trying to have a positive discussion about the two systems, and we aren't here to point fingers at certain personalities, even if those personalities might be abrasive.

I've said before, I suspect there is some truth in the articles but they were written in an inflamatory way. I suspect we will never know the real truth about what insults and slights may have passed between Mr. Parker and the Tracys. I suspect they went both ways. As far as I am concerned, it is history (a bit colorful and perhaps with some fireworks to boot, but history nonetheless). Two separate but similar and related arts have grown from that era. Both arts have merit. They approach training and learning from different angles but I bet in the hands of competent practitioners they have equal potential.

We have had a discussion going about Kosho Shorei Ryu here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29947&page=6
Around page 6 and 7 of the thread some interesting ideas came up regarding the kenpo curriculum. It was an idea that struck me based on the discussion in the thread and some contemplation that I have had about the system for a long time. You might find the discussion enteraining.

Anyway, have a great weekend.

 

[Sapper6]

Anyway, have a great weekend.

yeah, you too...for monday brings more tedious training.

 

[KenpoDave]

Copy of the same post @ kenpotalk.com:

Tracy's
The Tracy brothers began their martial training in fencing, boxing, and wrestling. They embarked on their study of Kenpo with Ed Parker and his first Black Belt, James Ibrao, in 1957, while attending college as pre-law students. Over time they developed a close relationship with Mr. Parker, and soon after Mr. Parker turned all the teaching of beginner and intermediate classes over to the Tracy brothers, who would develop an order in which the techniques would be taught, and the advanced classes were run by James Ibrao.
Al Tracy was the powerhouse of Ed Parker’s studio, and, as seen in the brochure used in 1962-64 by Ed Parker, Al Tracy did all the breaking demonstrations. The Tracy brothers would also run Mr. Parker’s studio when he would periodically return to Hawaii.
There has been question as to whether or not Al and Jim Tracy received their Black Belts (Shodan) from Ed Parker. In the Family Treelisted in the original "Infinite Insights", by Ed Parker, you can see that Al and Jim Tracy are listed as Black belts under Ed Parker, first generation. They also have the largest number of Black Belts listed undertheir tree!
Al Tracy was the fifth person promoted to Black Belt (Shodan) January 2,1962. Certificate dated January 7, 1962.
Jim Tracy was the sixth person promoted to Black Belt (Shodan) January 2,1962. Certificate dated January 7, 1962.
Will Tracy received his Black Belt (Shodan) in 1961, under both William K.S. Chow and Great Grand Master Fusae Oshita (James Mitose’s sister).
In the spring of 1962, the Tracy brothers opened their first studio in San Francisco, which was named Kenpo Karate Studio and was the northern branch of Ed Parker’s organization. It was there that the Tracy brothers created the three new Kyu ranks and the Kenpo "colored belt system". Ed Parker adopted the new 8-kyu system, but rejected the colored belts until finally converting to the Tracy color belt system in 1966. The Tracy brothers also created belt manuals (which contained 40 techniques per belt at that time) and gave the techniques names, like Attacking Circle, Raising the Staff, etc.
The Tracy brothers opened a second school, in Sacramento, in 1962, and a third, in San Jose, in 1963, and later changed the name of the schools to Tracy’s Kenpo Karate.
Ed Parker turned the Kenpo Karate Association of America (KKAA) over to the Tracy brothers and then formed the International Kenpo Karate Association (IKKA). The Tracy brothers agreed to join the IKKA, on the condition that they could keep the standards of teaching of the KKAA for their own students.
In 1964, the Tracy Brothers were promoted to 3rd Degree Black Belt (Sandan).
Ed Parker promoted Al Tracy to 3rd Degree Black Belt on December 4, 1964.
The certificate is from the IKKA and is signed by Ed Parker, Mills Crenshaw, Stan Hall, and Charles Sullivan, and witnessed by Charlotte Connor, the wife of Tom Connor.
The Tracy brothers later opened schools throughout California, as well as other states, and formed the Tracy’s International Studios of Self-Defense.
By 1982, Ed Parker had changed what he called American Kenpo, so much so as to make it in Parker’s own words, "no more than 10% Kenpo." It was around this time that the Tracy’s completely broke from Ed Parker.
Al Tracy's Kenpo Karate remains to this day teaching "Original/Traditional" Kenpo, as taught to him by Ed Parker, one of the most realistic combat scenario based systems of self-defense available.
The Tracy’s International Studios of Self Defense is a worldwide organization, based out of Lexington, Kentucky, comprised of over 1,000 schools. It is the largest system of affiliated schools and the longest-running self-defense chain in the world.
Al Tracy has organized the largest “gathering” of Kenpoist in the world. A true historic event called the “Gathering of Eagles”, which took place in Las Vegas, Nevada, February of 1999.
The Gathering brought together over seventy masters, representing Kenpo, American Kenpo, Shaolin Kenpo, Wun Hop Kuen Do, Lima Lama, Kajukenbo, etc., and included some of the biggest names in Westernized Kenpo; James Ibrao, Thomas Mitose, the son of the late James Mitose, Al Dacascos, Ralph and Rob Castro, William Chun, Sonny Gascon, Bart Vale, Larry Tatum, Dave Simmons, Adriano Emperado, Richard Lee, Sig Kufferath, Tino Tuiolosega, John McSweeney, and the list goes on and on.
Between 1100-1200 people attended the event, coming from all over the globe, with a choice of five seminars at any one time and eighty overall.
The second Gathering took place in 2001 and was attended by approximately 1500-1600 people. The event also included the son of Choki Motobu, Chosei Motobu, and others included Koshiro Tanaka, Ron Sanchez, Steve Labounty, and Bob White.
__________________

 

[Carol]

I've noticed that Tracy and EPAK differ over names of techniques, even when a technique iis shared or very similar. How did the different names come about?

 

[Sigung86]

I've noticed that Tracy and EPAK differ over names of techniques, even when a technique iis shared or very similar. How did the different names come about?

According to Al Tracy, in a nutshell, He and his brothers named the techniques based on some particular noteworthy aspect of each technique. If you ever have an opportunity to see any Tracy training vids, you will, on at least one occasion, hear Al say that he does not remember why a name/names were given to certain techniques, after all these years.

Apparently, again, according to Al, although the technique names were copyright material, he offered to let SGM Parker use them. SGM Parker, apparently, declined the offer and came up with his own naming convention. SGM Parker's naming convention was based on a more useful naming paradigm than the Tracy Method. Or so it would seem, as it is based on the actual physical attributes of the techniques.

Hope I've helped clear up a question or two.

Dan Farmer

 

[Doc]

I studied EPAK all my life but I know of two Tracy schools that were within the area I lived in several years back that produced very good fighters. The styles are somewhat different, and like flyingcrane said there are more techniques in the Tracy system than Parker's but the outcome is the same for both. Neither system is superior to the other, and I think that is one of the greatest misconceptions, Tracy is better or Parker is better none of that is accurate. I ve seen Tracy style students switch over to EPAK and never look back, like I ve seen EPAK students switch over to the Tracy System and never look back. A lot of it has to do with the student, his/her progression and how they grasp concepts of motion, some people like to have a little leeway or freedom to variate, others feel better if they have technique for every possible angles.

Actually I would suggest that has more to do with the students and their teachers than anything else. The "brand" is probably irrelevant.

 

[KenpoDusty]

KenpoDave,

That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!

Keep Smiling
Dusty

 

[Doc]

KenpoDave,

That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!

Keep Smiling
Dusty

I hope you're kidding.

 

[KenpoDave]

KenpoDave,

That is probably the best piece of information Ive read regarding Parker/Tracy history without a particular bias. Thanks!

Keep Smiling
Dusty

Thanks, but the credit goes to Scott Heaney. He originally had it posted at his website, and I think he may have authored it. It is not really a Parker/Tracy history, though, more of a Tracy history.

 

[stickarts]

I asked about the differences once from a high level Parker practicioner and he said the main difference is "how it is applied on the body"
I personally haven't studied both sytems equally so i don't have a qualified opinion.

 

[donald]

What I know from my limited knowledge of both systems comes from being involved with each. The Tracy studios I was involved in were not as readily influenced by the Chinese systems. They seemed to exhibit more of the Okinawian/Japanese influences. Not really to say one is better than the other. My honest opinion is that they are really two sides to the same coin. One side reflects one image, and the opposite side details another. Very different in some respects, and very much alike in others. I think the best way to measure for yourself is to check out a couple of the studios. Because in the end it really depends on who is teaching the material.

 

[Carol]

I asked about the differences once from a high level Parker practicioner and he said the main difference is "how it is applied on the body"
I personally haven't studied both sytems equally so i don't have a qualified opinion.

How it is applied on the body?

That is an interesting comment, but I'm struggling to understand what it means.

Can anyone explain more?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i've trained extensively in both systems. it's mostly the same -- two slightly different delivery vehicles for the same core concepts.

technically, you'll find tracy is a little more ornate and epak techniques are longer.

i feel there's less solidarity in the tracy line where i live now (in fact, that's how i ended up in epak. i moved and the three tracy teachers in town all focused on what jerks the other two were. unimpressed i went to the epak school). that may be different in other parts of the country.

hope that helps. both are fine, really. it's the teacher that matters.

 

[Danjo]

One should be careful to consider the source of one's information. Will Tracy, in addition to not practicing Tracy's Kenpo or EPAK has more than a slightly bizzare take on things in life. He called Parker a cult leader, and then he pulls stuff like this:

http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html


http://www.goddess.org/

http://www.godulike.co.uk/faiths.php?chapter=24&subject=who

You ask yourself how reliable this guy is.

 

[Doc]

One should be careful to consider the source of one's information. Will Tracy, in addition to not practicing Tracy's Kenpo or EPAK has more than a slightly bizzare take on things in life. He called Parker a cult leader, and then he pulls stuff like this:

http://www.subgenius.com/subg-digest/v0/0082.html


http://www.goddess.org/

http://www.godulike.co.uk/faiths.php?chapter=24&subject=who

You ask yourself how reliable this guy is.

Will was always 'differrent.' At one point we were looking at him for practicing law without a license. He had claimed to be an attorney, and wanted to act as his own council. Some of his perspectives were so 'out there,' he ultimately fell out with Al as well.

 

[Danjo]

Another off the wall assertion by Will Tracy (and by the rest of the Tracy camp) is that Mitose was taught by his sister who supposedly out ranked him in Kenpo. Well, they use the idea that since Mitose was uke for this "unknown girl" in his first book, that the girl must have been his superior due to the fact that the Japanese were very strict about protocol etc. and that a Master would never uke for his student.

Well, two (at least two) problems with this:

1) Sijo Emperado says that the girl in the photograph was Mitose's girlfriend and that everyone knew her.

2) The idea that someone would not uke in for a woman in a sequence that was designed to demonstrate "women's self defense" is proven wrong by the fact that Okazaki did the same thing in his book in 1929 by using Watanabe as uke for some unknown female.

 

[Flying Crane]

Will was always 'differrent.' At one point we were looking at him for practicing law without a license. He had claimed to be an attorney, and wanted to act as his own council. Some of his perspectives were so 'out there,' he ultimately fell out with Al as well.

well, claiming to be an attorney when you don't have a license to practice law is of course wrong and illegal, but anyone can represent themselves in a court of law if one so chooses, regardless of whether or not he has legal training or licenses. Of course the common thought on doing that is if you represent yourself, you have a fool for a client...