Open vs. Closed Hand

[BlackSheep]

Ned Beaumont, who wrote "Championship Street Fighting: Boxing as a Martial Art", advocates that those trained in boxing skills, learn to use the same techniques, cross, hook, etc. using the Heal of the Hand. There is no reason why a powerful right cross can't be thrown using the palm as weapon - the only thing that changes is the range - you lose a few inches. Personally, I think someone could develop a significant CQ ability utilizing heel of the hand and elbow techniques and forgetting closed-hand punches

My last fight in the ring was in 94. I have been doing the above since then. In the four “street” fights that I have had since 94 it has worked splendidly for me.

- except, perhaps, the quick jab as distractor.

I don’t even make this exception.

 

[Hand Sword]

Good choice!

 

[BlackSheep]

Thanks HS

Prior to 94 I had broken my fist twice. After changing from fist to palm, I sprained my wrist once. I had just begun to retrain myself to use the palm when I got into this fight. The sprain was due to me trying to make a fist and palm strike at the same time. But once I had completed my retraining I had no more problems.

I do see a potential to break or sprain a finger, but that’s no big deal in a fight.

 

[searcher]

Palm or other soft weapon on hard targets. Fist or hard weapon on soft targets. That is from to many hand injuries mixed with the stubborn desire to not give up closed hand techniques.

 

[thescottishdude]

with me if I use my open hand then eventually I end up spraining or fracturing my fingers (not often I'm glad) a closed fist is just injury free for me.

 

[lenatoi]

Sorry to just be a repeat here, but I've got to agree that no one type of strike is good for every occasion. Where are you striking? Which direction? What is your intent? Who are you striking? I like to use my fingers on my brother. (it hurts a different way. It's more like torture)

 

[BlackSheep]

with me if I use my open hand then eventually I end up spraining or fracturing my fingers (not often I'm glad) a closed fist is just injury free for me.

That’s because you don’t hit hard enough to break your hand. Some people do hit hard enough to break their hands and they are better off using their palms.

I like to use my fingers on my brother. (it hurts a different way. It's more like torture)

Playing with your brother is not the same thing as defending yourself from a couple of crackheads trying to rape you.

but I've got to agree that no one type of strike is good for every occasion. Where are you striking? Which direction? What is your intent? Who are you striking?

Being struck multiple times within a second or two doesn’t give you enough time to contemplate all the variables. Plus the adrenaline dump will push your heart rate to well over 100 beats per minute which will cause you to lose fine motor skills and cognitive functioning.

 

[lenatoi]

I obviously don't beleive that playing with my brother is the same thing as defending myself. I was answering the question of what strike I think is "best." By using the brother example, I was merely demonstraying that there is no "best" for every occasion.

In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?

I will admit that fine moter skills errode in intensely stressfull situations, but thaught processes do not. In adition, stressfull situations can be created in a training environment in order to hone ones skills in preperation. That dump of adrenalin you experience can serve to slow the situation down in your mind, making you better able to react in a given situation.

 

[BlackSheep]

I obviously don't beleive that playing with my brother is the same thing as defending myself. I was answering the question of what strike I think is "best." By using the brother example, I was merely demonstraying that there is no "best" for every occasion.

Then you used a poor example!

I will admit that fine moter skills errode in intensely stressfull situations, but thaught processes do not.

“According to Grossman’s lecture, cognitive processing occurs in the forebrain.
This is where rational thought occurs and is what distinguishes us as human beings.
When a critical incident reaches a certain point, the body says that there is no
longer a need for rational thought. The body resorts to its primal instincts, which
are controlled by the midbrain. The midbrain controls your decisions to fight or
flight when confronted with dangers posed by another species.
Grossman (1995) suggests that these options expand to include posturing and
submission when confronted with dangers posed by members of our own species.”

http://www.cji.net/CJI/CenterInfo/lemc/papers/Darin Clay.pdf

In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?

Just what is it that you are proposing? To stop and think about all the possibilities and then decide on a technique, execute the technique and then stop and think again about your next move?

 

[still learning]

Hello, That was a lot to read (above). From what I can gather....hitting with the fist? ...may often lead to a broken hand.

Palm/elbow/ridge/slap too, type of strikes is safer to use! ....to the head/face. Most of us agree on this.....this is good.

Now we also know? ...punches with a fist DO WORK...and we seen this happen also without breaking our hands too.
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The human being head/face comes in all shapes and sizes...most are uneven....hense the problems striking with the fist...some parts of the fist will hit bone, well other parts continune on feeling the softer parts. (That is why we break the fist? ...well one problem anyway. (hitting with an incorrect fist too)

Picture is worth a thousand words.....take a picture of someone face..put it on the bag....hit the face a couple of hundred times...train hard...when the time comes....hit the picture only...

Now if the face is flat? ..even..and in nice shape...GO FOR IT

Just my thoughts on this.........In life we will FACE many challenges...Aloha

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Depends on the target for me but my first choice is open hand and elbows.

 

[Rich Parsons]

When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice? For me, I prefer an open hand strike such as a palm heel, a hammerfist or an elbow over hitting with my closed fist. IMO, you're going to run less of a chance of getting a hand injury with an open handed strike. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly not saying that a closed fist is a bad idea, just taking into consideration that it may not always be the best choice.

Thoughts?

I prefer to use open hand techniques. It is a part of my self-defense before and after the situation. I can honestly say, I did not strike him with a fist officer/judge/ADA, I only reached out to stop/push him and my andrenaline and fear must have gotten to me more then I knew at the time.

I teach to all newbies that the hammer fist is your chosen self-defense weapon until you feel much mroe comfortable with other strikes. The Hammer fist falls into a gross motor skill that people with little training can execute with little to no training.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Rich,
That makes alot of sense to me.

 

[lenatoi]

First, sir, the question was "When it comes to striking, what is your tool of choice?," not When the heat is on, what will you always use?.
I did not use a poor example. I was showing a different setting where one might use a strike of some sort.

When I said,"In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?," I did not say "stop" to think about the situation. Don't try to twist my words for the sake of an argument. If you cannot choose your strike I would say you need more training.
Again, stopping between strikes would not be neccesary either. Once you have chosen your first attack your physical memory will kick in.

Now I have a question for you. Do you think only ONE perfect strike should be taught because nothing else will be remembered anyway?

 

[FearlessFreep]

I think of fighter pilots and racecar drivers and others who have to make instant decisions and precise reactions to dangerous situations. The thing is, they practice those situations over and over so they are used to operating in that sphere so when it comes to making a decision, they are not in 'fight-or-flight' mode but are still in a place they are accustomed to where they can think rationally

I thought that was one of the points behind MA training. Your practice over and over to be in those fighting situations so that a fighting situation develops, it's not a new type of stress but something you have trained for and practiced for and so you are still in the space of rational thought and not just 'fight or flight' survival mode.

As a musician, getting on stage is never quite the same as practicing before hand, but the more you practice before hand and the more relaxed and comfortable you are with the material, the more relaxed and ready you will be on stage.

The idea is to get yourself to the point where your mind does not go into 'panic survival not-thinking-just-reacting' mode as quickly because you are in a situation that you are at least somewhat more accustomed to

 

[BlackSheep]

When I said,"In response to your other comment, I beleive that if you have the proper training(and enough of it) you will be able to choosebetween some strike or another. Likewise, what is the point of learning various strikes if you are only ever going to use one? If, no matter what, you will not be able to asses a situation, Why even Pretend to train in the martial arts?," I did not say "stop" to think about the situation. Don't try to twist my words for the sake of an argument. If you cannot choose your strike I would say you need more training.
Again, stopping between strikes would not be neccesary either. Once you have chosen your first attack your physical memory will kick in.

This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Really, I’m having a hard time understanding your position.

When I read someone’s post I try to get a metal image of how they fight. You sound like a teenage girl, who the closest she has been to a real fight is point sparring. If that’s true, then it would explain allot.

Now I have a question for you. Do you think only ONE perfect strike should be taught because nothing else will be remembered anyway?

"ONE perfect strike" LOL

I train using 9 different strikes. 5 are palm strikes, 3 are elbow and one kick.

 

[lenatoi]

I can see that you are having a hard time understanding.
Thankyou for resorting to attacking me personally, and getting off subject. It shows quite a bit about you. Since you can obviously not participate in a coherent, give and take conversation,(an argument) then I submit.

You win.

Perhaps someone should put you into a small, female body. That way, you could experience the type of physical encounters I have had to deal with in the past.

 

[BlackSheep]

Hey lenatoi, sorry for being so rough on you. I mean that.

Honestly I’m having trouble understanding your post. You can pick the strike but it’s also muscle memory? And I thought the thread was about the fist vs. open hand, not about different strikes.

BTW what martial arts do you do?

 

[cfr]

I skimmed through this, not read each post line by line before asking these questions, so please forgive me if they have already been asked.

First, my knuckle is sore. I have a Wavemaster XXL which has a plastic core. I was workin' away the other day and am feeling that plastic core now. It's not broke, but it is an eye opener. Ironically, we have recently started to explore open hand techs for self preservation reasons. Questions:

1; Should the fingers be bent to redure the risk of hyper-extending the wrist?
2; Is is difficult to learn to generate the same amount of poweropen handed as closed?
3; Most people mentioned the palm strike in this thread. I see no reason why a palm stirke couldn't be used as a hook, do you?
4; Has anyone successfully used open hand techs for uppercuts? It seens awkward to me, but that could be due to my inexperience.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I skimmed through this, not read each post line by line before asking these questions, so please forgive me if they have already been asked.

First, my knuckle is sore. I have a Wavemaster XXL which has a plastic core. I was workin' away the other day and am feeling that plastic core now. It's not broke, but it is an eye opener. Ironically, we have recently started to explore open hand techs for self preservation reasons. Questions:

1; Should the fingers be bent to redure the risk of hyper-extending the wrist?
2; Is is difficult to learn to generate the same amount of poweropen handed as closed?
3; Most people mentioned the palm strike in this thread. I see no reason why a palm stirke couldn't be used as a hook, do you?
4; Has anyone successfully used open hand techs for uppercuts? It seens awkward to me, but that could be due to my inexperience.

1) I prefer to have the fingers back. The tendons along the inner arm not as tense when the fingers are have folded down.

2) Not for me once power generation was learned with the body versus upper body strength.

3) The Hook for turns into the slap, and yes I like it and use it.

4) I see no problem using the palm up to hit the chin (* Teach this *) and also to get the hands and fingers to have access to the opponents throat and face.