Open vs. Closed Hand

[cfr]

I do as you mentioned know that possibility of an injury rising dramitically using a closed hand, but the power of the closed hand negates that portion for me personally.

I was of that thinking as well, until I really spent some time developing my open hand striking. Now that I've gotten used too them, my power is far better open hand than closed. I think the reasoning is:

1) My arm is more relaxed.
2) I am less worried about injuries.

This has just been my experience, but now that I stike open handed full time I doubt I will never go back to closed.

 

[exile]

exile,

The hammer fist and palm heel are gross motor skills and are good simple strikes. I agree that in theory one could generate a perfect reverse punch with the proper hip and weight placement and knuckle placement and rotation of hand could generate the most amount of energy, but looking at stress and reacting to people in real time, keeping it simple for basics is good im my opinion. When I do punch most of the time I do not rotate the hand over, as I find it is not want I do in a real fight.

Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skin—important in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!

I also like them as it is part of your legal self defense. If a witness sees your open hand it is a defensive move, push them away - Palm heel - or to defensivly strike them - hammer fist - and this goes a long way with the police and the DA's and possible even the judge, although I was lucky and did not have to deal with a judge for myself.

If you say you purposefully striked the person with this type of strike and a witness can confirm it then your strike could be determined to be premeditated. Of course talk to a lawyer for actual legal advice. Before and after any altercation.

Just my thoughts.

Very shrewd point... that aspect of it never occured to me... makes much sense. Especially because most `laypeople' are unlikely to know just how much force a palm-heel strike is known to capable of delivering...

 

[exile]

exile,

The hammer fist and palm heel are gross motor skills and are good simple strikes. I agree that in theory one could generate a perfect reverse punch with the proper hip and weight placement and knuckle placement and rotation of hand could generate the most amount of energy, but looking at stress and reacting to people in real time, keeping it simple for basics is good im my opinion. When I do punch most of the time I do not rotate the hand over, as I find it is not want I do in a real fight.

Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skin—important in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!

I also like them as it is part of your legal self defense. If a witness sees your open hand it is a defensive move, push them away - Palm heel - or to defensivly strike them - hammer fist - and this goes a long way with the police and the DA's and possible even the judge, although I was lucky and did not have to deal with a judge for myself.

If you say you purposefully striked the person with this type of strike and a witness can confirm it then your strike could be determined to be premeditated. Of course talk to a lawyer for actual legal advice. Before and after any altercation.

Just my thoughts.

Very shrewd point... that aspect of it never occured to me... makes much sense. Especially because most `laypeople' are unlikely to know just how much force a palm-heel strike is known to be capable of delivering...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Open hand

More relaxed strike more power.

Nothing wrong with closed hand it is good to train but there is a lot of power in a palm strike. Less damage to the hand as well.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Right, Rich, I'm with you on this. I have serious doubts that the rotation actual contributes significantly to the force delivery. I've heard it said that fist rotation actually does boxers more good than MAists, because there the rotation involves twists the glove fabric around the point of impact, increasing the likelihood of breaking the skin—important in a strike to the head, particularly the eye area, where bleeding can interfere with the opponent's vision. But for us... not so much!

Coming as I do from a bagua background where the palm is king I have to say I favour open-hand strikes. As you say there is a simplicity to the strike which does not subtract from the power delivered. How mant times have we seen someone damage a wrist because their punch was a little off.

I am also quite convinced that rotation during striking adds nothing to power. If you are using your arm to development power then you are striking incorrectly. Power comes from the legs and waist and is channelled by the arms and hands. This is not to say a strong arm doesn't help its just that it is not where the power comes from.

There is something else about open-hand strikes. They have versatility. A palm can be a strike, a push or a slap. It can strike and then hold acting as a pivot for another attack, or it can strike and slide which also generates another attack. You know in bagua there are eight recognised palms, a couple you might call knifehand or spear hand blows, but the point is that it is a versatile strike.

Traditionally in CMAs it is also considered more dangerous than a fist because of the Qi portal Lao Gong, which is in the middle of the palm. An open hand strike allows this Qi portal to be brought into play.

Of course, when it comes down to it, bagua tends to get in close so elbows and shoulder blocks also begin to factor in as options.

 

[Guardian]

I guess I'm the lone advocate of closed fist LOL. That's ok, I've read alot of good points here and as with anything, learning is an on-going process and I love to take everything into consideration.

Ok, no one said we had to use open or closed to detail police reports LOL and the elbows are always a give me with me. One thing is for certain, I'm not sticking around to wait for the police to come, even in a self-defense of someone else, my name is not important and my presences is not necessary unless it's a serious crime such as rape and then I don't think the witnesses are going to give a cra_ of whether I used open or closed fist on the assailant, that pretty much goes for most reasons that I would insert myself into a situation.

Just another view folks, that's all.

 

[Doc_Jude]

Since this is "General Self Defense", then Open Hands all the way, Hammer Fists being the exception.

 

[potterfan77]

My weapon of choice would depend on where my strike was going to be. If I were going for the head then I would use an open hand palm heal to jaw(double palm heal if possible) that way you break their jaw and the fight is over. If I were going fro the body then I would have a better chance of breaking ribs with a closed fist.

 

[kidswarrior]

Coming as I do from a bagua background where the palm is king I have to say I favour open-hand strikes. As you say there is a simplicity to the strike which does not subtract from the power delivered. How mant times have we seen someone damage a wrist because their punch was a little off.

So true. As Exile and Rich pointed out, it uses gross motor skill, which we still have even when the adrenaline is shooting through the veins.

I am also quite convinced that rotation during striking adds nothing to power. If you are using your arm to development power then you are striking incorrectly. Power comes from the legs and waist and is channelled by the arms and hands. This is not to say a strong arm doesn't help its just that it is not where the power comes from.

I believe this is true, too S-T. Have seen it taught more in CMA teachings than my Kempo training, tho (but that's just me).

There is something else about open-hand strikes. They have versatility. A palm can be a strike, a push or a slap. It can strike and then hold acting as a pivot for another attack, or it can strike and slide which also generates another attack. You know in bagua there are eight recognised palms, a couple you might call knifehand or spear hand blows, but the point is that it is a versatile strike.

I didn't understand how much versatility and how many options until at one point I began a serious shift from closed fists to open hand. The combinations and changes available are myriad. For example, a closed fist can't grab, which means it can't set up a throw or lock, and it can't rip or stab soft tissue. And it makes a slower block if one is suddenly on the defensive end. I do still use closed fists, but not like in my old boxing days.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

I tend to use open hand strikes, except I will punch to the body or use a hook on the jaw, but no strait punches to the face.
I might have to transition to a gun or knife and a broken dominant hand can impeed that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hammer Fists being the exception.

 

[theletch1]

I've always heard it put that a hard target demands a soft weapon and a soft target demands a hard weapon. Open hand to the head and closed to the body. Being an aikido-ka I generally use an open hand 90% of the time. I'm always looking for an opening to set up a lock or throw and the open hand gives me those options as well as the chance to throw a chop, slap, poke to the eyes or throat. Generally, I tend to use the open hand as long as possible at the outset of an altercation as it's less intimidating to witnesses and less threatening to an aggressor.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I've always heard it put that a hard target demands a soft weapon and a soft target demands a hard weapon. Open hand to the head and closed to the body. Being an aikido-ka I generally use an open hand 90% of the time. I'm always looking for an opening to set up a lock or throw and the open hand gives me those options as well as the chance to throw a chop, slap, poke to the eyes or throat. Generally, I tend to use the open hand as long as possible at the outset of an altercation as it's less intimidating to witnesses and less threatening to an aggressor.

Try a chop to the floating rib, or a short chop (5th Metacarpal palm heel chop) to the kidney or the base of the skull. Brutal.

 

[ares]

I prefer to get in close and use the ol elbow. Much more force and you don't get hurt as much. Plus you get bonus stuff because of the nature of the strike, your hands are free to grab, wrap, ect. Scott