Closed fist vs Palm?

[drop bear]

Secondary as in, if you get close the elbow and fore-arm will, often times, hit the body before the fist reaches it's target, but I am a mauler.

See I disagree with that even in close. As hand striking finds gaps a bit better.

 

[Takai]

See I disagree with that even in close. As hand striking finds gaps a bit better.

That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.

 

[Touch Of Death]

That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.

If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.

 

[Takai]

If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.

Only because you have filled it with an attack.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There might be some special cqc elbow that I have not been exposed to that is more efficient than say Thai style elbows.

DB, take a look at Tony Blauer's explanation of two types of CQC elbow strikes, the horizontal and the vertical.

There are several things to note in this clip. First is the gross motor/muscle memory built into these strikes. In the case of the vertical elbow strike (as I teach my students, basically taking your thumb and putting it in the middle of your back and having the elbow follow the same trajectory) you've been doing this all your life i.e. scratching an itch or washing your back when you take a shower. With the horizontal elbow strike, the same thing as he's explained i.e. putting on the seat belt. This is an example of 'by rote' gross motor skill training that we've all done and applying it to a combative situation. Secondly is the range that these strikes can be used in. One can be at typical fighting distances, but more importantly they can be at grappling distance. Indeed, when we train we are literally nose-to-nose and my philosophy is to be able to fight inside a phone booth. If you have the space to move your hand, the elbow will follow the same trajectory.

This generates an incredible amount of power in a very short range-of-motion movement. As an example of a real world altercation, one of our Deputies fought an EDP on the inside of his own cruiser during an attack. Visualize the inside of a cruiser and the very limited amount of space considering the steering wheel, computer, console etc. The Deputy was on the top of the EDP who was across both seats literally lifting the Deputy against the inside roof of the vehicle (choking him out with a forearm across his throat). The Deputy utilized two horizontal elbow strikes as Tony demonstrates (the Deputy had taken SPEAR from Tony just a few months before this altercation). The elbow strikes incapacitated the EDP (he was knocked unconscious) and you'd think someone had take a bat to the guys face. Not an exaggeration. It closed both eyes due to swelling (both sides high cheek/under the eye were fractured).

This is just one example. That these elbow strikes are used in conjunction with SPEAR is a bonus and why our agency (and many others) utilize this training method. As far as the OP, I'd use a closed fist strike to a soft tissue target, if applicable to the situation such as the abdomen, solar plexus etc. But I'd opt for an open hand strike to a hard target with an emphasis on EOH (edged of hand), forearm or elbow in combination between hard/soft targets. In addition to working well with SPEAR they also work well with things like the O'Neill cover, crazy monkey cover, double or single ram or elbow spikes.

 

[drop bear]

That would be dependent on your position, the opponents position and where the hole is.

Which I have sort of mentioned.

That elbows are a tactical choice rather than some sort of superior striking method. Thee are defiantly circumstances where elbows will lay people out.

 

[drop bear]

If they don't see it coming, there is no hole.

You are asking for a pretty advantageous position to throw that from. A lot of strikes are superior if you don't see it coming.

 

[drop bear]

DB, take a look at Tony Blauer's explanation of two types of CQC elbow strikes, the horizontal and the vertical.

There are several things to note in this clip. First is the gross motor/muscle memory built into these strikes. In the case of the vertical elbow strike (as I teach my students, basically taking your thumb and putting it in the middle of your back and having the elbow follow the same trajectory) you've been doing this all your life i.e. scratching an itch or washing your back when you take a shower. With the horizontal elbow strike, the same thing as he's explained i.e. putting on the seat belt. This is an example of 'by rote' gross motor skill training that we've all done and applying it to a combative situation. Secondly is the range that these strikes can be used in. One can be at typical fighting distances, but more importantly they can be at grappling distance. Indeed, when we train we are literally nose-to-nose and my philosophy is to be able to fight inside a phone booth. If you have the space to move your hand, the elbow will follow the same trajectory.

This generates an incredible amount of power in a very short range-of-motion movement. As an example of a real world altercation, one of our Deputies fought an EDP on the inside of his own cruiser during an attack. Visualize the inside of a cruiser and the very limited amount of space considering the steering wheel, computer, console etc. The Deputy was on the top of the EDP who was across both seats literally lifting the Deputy against the inside roof of the vehicle (choking him out with a forearm across his throat). The Deputy utilized two horizontal elbow strikes as Tony demonstrates (the Deputy had taken SPEAR from Tony just a few months before this altercation). The elbow strikes incapacitated the EDP (he was knocked unconscious) and you'd think someone had take a bat to the guys face. Not an exaggeration. It closed both eyes due to swelling (both sides high cheek/under the eye were fractured).

This is just one example. That these elbow strikes are used in conjunction with SPEAR is a bonus and why our agency (and many others) utilize this training method. As far as the OP, I'd use a closed fist strike to a soft tissue target, if applicable to the situation such as the abdomen, solar plexus etc. But I'd opt for an open hand strike to a hard target with an emphasis on EOH (edged of hand), forearm or elbow in combination between hard/soft targets. In addition to working well with SPEAR they also work well with things like the O'Neill cover, crazy monkey cover, double or single ram or elbow spikes.

Also we should note the way he employed his defensive hands and what happens to a palm strike trying to crash through that a perfect example of how you can injure you hands.

And how the target is stationary. If the head slips back the elbow misses. so as far as gross motor movement actually landing that elbow flush becomes a complicated timing issue. Not so with a punch especially in close. Now if the head is stationary then yeah throw the elbow.

Ground and pound like your cruiser example the elbow has really good options as well.

But what seems to be this idea of walking into a hail of punches to throw an elbow is just not going to work very well.

Most of the effective elbows I have seen are like this. Out of the blue sucker shots. And not necessarily two people fighting shots.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBkszzm-7mw

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Also we should note the way he employed his defensive hands and what happens to a palm strike trying to crash through that a perfect example of how you can injure you hands.

Your assessment is not backed up by fact. We've been using SPEAR and it's related concepts in our agency for nearly 20 years and no Deputy has ever injured their hands when employing to system. Nor has any agency I'm aware of that uses SPEAR and it's related concepts ever had an Officer injure their hands as a result of employing the system.

And how the target is stationary.

The target needs to remain stationary for the purpose of his explanation. In the real world it doesn't matter whether or not it is stationary. And indeed the system is designed with the consideration that it won't be stationary.

f the head slips back the elbow misses. so as far as gross motor movement actually landing that elbow flush becomes a complicated timing issue.

Not at all. I don't think you understand SPEAR or the premise that it is based upon. SPEAR is based upon several foundational aspects which have borne out under real world use i.e. startle/flinch response and CWCT (closest weapon closest target) to name a couple. It doesn't matter if the elbow strike lands or not because you've set yourself up (and the attacker) for the next strike in the series. One is able to employ five strikes in just over one second to include SPEAR, elbow strikes and palm heels. If one misses (and it is expected that it might, though there exists a very good chance that it won't miss) then you've placed yourself in the position to inflict another one. Each of which could end the fight in short order. And too be honest, the response is so fast/dynamic/fluid/brutal that the attacker could actually be incapacitated early in the series of strikes yet the rest continue to rain in because his reaction is slower than your action.

But what seems to be this idea of walking into a hail of punches to throw an elbow is just not going to work very well.

No offense, but your statement shows that you don't understand CQC systems such as SPEAR (and I'll include PCR into that category). While there exists no need to 'walk into a hail of punches'...using SPEAR you almost hope the guy is doing exactly that. Makes everything easier. This is why the system, and the covers I've mentioned work so well in real world altercations.

It is simply easy to learn, retained in long term muscle memory, uses the bodies own actions/reactions and works under the conditions of a real fight. That's why it's been used for decades.

 

[Rich Parsons]

What is more effective?

As with everything it depends.

I'm trying to reprogram my brain into using open hand strikes when striking at the head.

Is this because of something you want personally or because of something you have to do for regulations and process?
* Assumption based upon your name of CageKicker and have a partner and taking someone to jail is that you are a Deputy Sheriff who worked in the jails and now is working on the road. *

My instinct is to strike with a fist to the head. Unless up close then it's elbows all the way.

Elbows are good.

I do not train to kick much above the waist. I can but I just don't. I have used a front snap kick to an assailants head. He was mounted on my partner choking him with a front choke. I kicked him he went lights out we took him to jail.

I see you have some confrontations in your work. As your partner was in danger, your actions may not have been questioned, yet in other cases it could be. Hence the question you have asked?

One of the issues I'm having is wrist flexibility. I have very tight wrist. Any time I have to do palm heal strikes to a bag or upper chest of another my wrist and forearms start hurting real quick. The top of my hand where my knuckle joist star will hit first because I cannot pull my hand flat. This really sucks.

Turn your fingers our 45 degrees, thumb can be up or down depending upon where you want to go next.

Is this a common problem that can be fixed through constant stretching?

Assumption is that you will be in a vehicle with partner.

If driving a few times an hour stretch your hands using the steering wheel as a fixed point to stretch against. If not driving on the passenger side use the assist handle for getting into the vehicle for the same stretch. This may be more obvious as you may have to have a hand up or across your body.

Your stretch may never get where you want depending upon past injuries.

Lastly do you feel a palm heal to the head is just as effective as a punch? I don't mean head like the forehead I mean head area including face and jaw ect.

It can be.


Now, personally I prefer the palm strikes. My hands look open. the look less threatening. Witnesses do not see the fist so your actions look more like pushes and defensive versus offensive.

I also like open hand to hook or cup the head to hold or guide it the elbow strike you stated you liked.


So to help reprogram, you can find a BOB training dummy at many Gyms now, and you can use your palm strikes to assist in your elbow strikes. Of course reality is never the same as training, as in reality the opponent will move more and or be oblivious to pain due to drugs. So working with a live training partner is good and the next step for your training after the solo training with the BOB.


Good Luck

 

[Touch Of Death]

You are asking for a pretty advantageous position to throw that from. A lot of strikes are superior if you don't see it coming.

Look up obscure zones, sometime.

 

[Cagekicker]

As with everything it depends.



Is this because of something you want personally or because of something you have to do for regulations and process?
* Assumption based upon your name of CageKicker and have a partner and taking someone to jail is that you are a Deputy Sheriff who worked in the jails and now is working on the road. *



Elbows are good.



I see you have some confrontations in your work. As your partner was in danger, your actions may not have been questioned, yet in other cases it could be. Hence the question you have asked?




Turn your fingers our 45 degrees, thumb can be up or down depending upon where you want to go next.



Assumption is that you will be in a vehicle with partner.

If driving a few times an hour stretch your hands using the steering wheel as a fixed point to stretch against. If not driving on the passenger side use the assist handle for getting into the vehicle for the same stretch. This may be more obvious as you may have to have a hand up or across your body.

Your stretch may never get where you want depending upon past injuries.




It can be.


Now, personally I prefer the palm strikes. My hands look open. the look less threatening. Witnesses do not see the fist so your actions look more like pushes and defensive versus offensive.

I also like open hand to hook or cup the head to hold or guide it the elbow strike you stated you liked.


So to help reprogram, you can find a BOB training dummy at many Gyms now, and you can use your palm strikes to assist in your elbow strikes. Of course reality is never the same as training, as in reality the opponent will move more and or be oblivious to pain due to drugs. So working with a live training partner is good and the next step for your training after the solo training with the BOB.


Good Luck

You are right I've been in law enforcement for 12 years. Main reason I'm trying to move away from punching to the head is I don't really want to make them bleed. Not saying a palm to the nose or chin and they bite there lip is not going to make them bleed. I don't really train my hands and I've busted knuckles punching people to the face as well as brused my hands. I have not broken them. A lot of the people I have to deal with are IV meth users lots of them share pins and diseases. My department and state allows punching to the head in non deadly force incidents but you better be justified. Pretty much if they are punching at your head you can return the favor. However the don't recommend it nor does my MA instructor. If it's deadly force all bets are off I'm ripping a throat out with my teeth if I have to. I've started lightly stretching my wrist hands and fingers 2-3 times a day. Seems to be helping a bit but I think it's going to take a long time to get my hand flat.

 

[cfr]

Greetings. I rarely post here but I'm pretty familiar with this topic and it sounded like fun on a boring day. I started open palm striking years ago after spraining a wrist. Personally, I found that after some time I can hit significantly hard this way. I'll admit it doesn't work (for me) with all punches, but yes I'm a big fan.

FWIW

 

[KydeX]

If you punch a bit more upwards, for instance to the jaw, you can bend your elbow slightly instead of a straight punch. Then you don't have to bend your wrist that much backwards to do a palm strike.

The drawback is that your reach will be a little shorter.

It all depends on your training. 20 years ago I used to train kyokushin karate and fight full contact competitions. I could punch whatever I wanted with a closed fist. My knuckles and wrist could take it with no problems due to all the training and hardening. Nowadays I can't, because I don't have time to do the necessary training. I train in the Bujinkan now, and I use more open handed strikes, to avoid injury to myself.