Too much yackin'?

[shesulsa]

I overheard a brief yet intriguing exchange at the store the other day ... one fellow asked another (I assume they were together) if he thought there was too much information being shared too freely across arts via internet chat mediums. The two seemed to have some trepidition, holding some value for traditionalism and art purity yet the other felt that brotherhood between arts was lacking and could be fostered this way. My gut feeling was that they both disagreed further than they were willing to discuss, and being short on time, I did not introduce myself with the interest of furthering the discussion.

What do you think? Are we benefitting? Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium? Is it/would it be a bad thing?

 

[exile]

I overheard a brief yet intriguing exchange at the store the other day ... one fellow asked another (I assume they were together) if he thought there was too much information being shared too freely across arts via internet chat mediums. The two seemed to have some trepidition, holding some value for traditionalism and art purity yet the other felt that brotherhood between arts was lacking and could be fostered this way. My gut feeling was that they both disagreed further than they were willing to discuss, and being short on time, I did not introduce myself with the interest of furthering the discussion.

What do you think? Are we benefitting? Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium? Is it/would it be a bad thing?

Well, the question I suppose is, what harm might be coming to the arts from the sharing of information?

There was a tradition of secrecy in the MAs that kind of went by the boards in the post-WWII era, for fairly obvious reasons---the nature of the population that was studying martial arts changed radically, relatively isolated communities became integrated into metropolitan societies with centralized law enforcement agencies, and social mobility led people with specialized knowledge of combat to relocate in places where they could make a living teaching that knowledge. Traditional practices typically serve very practical ends when they first arise, but change in circumstance over time often makes these much less practical. The original reasons for the secrecy you refer to involved protection of extended family secrets, or the priviledged knowledge of a school, or kwan, or whatever and hence the reputation and status of its master, or withholding of information from a hated occupier. But it's hard to see any of those factors at play in the modern MA scene.

So it seems to me that the only real question is, does the practice of a traditional martial art suffer from the circulation of new or different ideas and discoveries in other MAs? If you bear in mind that a lot of the current `traditional MAs' grew in just this way---fighting systems from China combined with home-grown techniques in Okinawa, imported to Japan and adapted there, and then to Korea to give rise to TKD, TSD and other MAs... it seems hard to argue that there is something inherently bad about the free flow of information in the MAs. If it's done carelessly and superficially, it won't last. If it proves useful, it will be incorporated into what, a few generations down the line, will be seen as a fine example of a traditional MA. I don't any harm coming to the fighting systems except if you think that change and innovation is itself bad.

Does this talk at all to the issue you were asking about, or did I miss the point? I'm not sure...

 

[bydand]

Interesting question. I thought about this when I first found MT actually. The conclusion I came to was, anyone unwilling to share knowledge of their particular art is either: 1) Narrow-minded, 2) unsure of themself, 3) unsure and/or ashamed of their chosen art, or 4) a MA bigot.

What I came to may seem a bit harsh, but in actuality it really isn't. I feel MA's training is a parallel to life, there is more than one road to get to the same destination. If we as MA's are so unwilling to share our knowledge with other interested parties, how do we expect our art to grow and survive? Just because I talk to MA's from other styles than I myself train in doesn't automaticly mean I am going to take those concepts we talked about and try to change the art I love. I also don't expect the other person to drop everything they have been training in and "convert" to my MA. When it comes to MA in general we all have chosen the art we feel best reflects our personal goals and ideals, it may be very complete, but someone from another art may have a better understanding of certain aspects of either the "Martial" or the "Art" portions we have been struggling with. I have no problem with a practitioner of TKD, MMA, or any other art you can name helping me come to a better understanding of a section of my own art.

 

[Bigshadow]

It is a virtual medium. So at best it just fosters brotherhood. We can share ideas about how to do things, but I don't think it contaminates the arts or mixes them. It really can't.

IMO, people that say that are like the people who feared the TV was watching them in their living rooms. I think it is unfounded fears.

 

[exile]

IMO, people that say that are like the people who feared the TV was watching them in their living rooms. I think it is unfounded fears.

Good comparison!

 

[Kacey]

What do you think? Are we benefitting? Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium? Is it/would it be a bad thing?

I think that there is an incredible amount of mis-information that abounds on the 'net, and one must be careful about where information comes from, and how reliable it should be considered to be - the longer your association with someone, and the more consistent and reliable their information appears to be, the more validity that can be placed upon it.

As far as separate arts suffering - secrets passed down only the deathbeds of the masters are, I hope, a thing of the past - and for myself, I am leery of people who think that only the select few acolytes should get the "mysterious and hidden secret of the art". Are arts melding and reforming? Certainly, at least to an extent - and the ones that aren't are often the ones that are slowly dying from their own lack of growth; at least, that's the way I see it. How many conversations have you seen about the lack of component "X" in a particular art, and the art(s) used as a source for filling in the gaps? Where do you think MMA came from in the first place? Or Jeet Kune Do? And it's been around, as far as I know, much longer than the widespread use of the internet.

Are some arts less "pure" than they used to be? Certainly. Is that good or bad? It depends on who you ask, their own open-mindedness, their goals, and their understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of their own styles. Arts have been melding - at least in terms of borrowing techniques from other arts - for much, if not all, of the 20th century and into the 21st - certainly, some have remained more "pure" than others, but it is the nature of martial arts, along with all other things, to grow and evolve. Does the internet facilitate this evolution? Sometimes... and sometimes the sheer quantity of information overwhelms attempts to use it. But overall, I see it as a positive thing.

 

[exile]

I think that there is an incredible amount of mis-information that abounds on the 'net, and one must be careful about where information comes from, and how reliable it should be considered to be - the longer your association with someone, and the more consistent and reliable their information appears to be, the more validity that can be placed upon it.

Well said, Kacey---boy, is this point ever worth a separate thread on its own! When I was at university one of my professors made a comment that I didn't really get at the time, but now seems ultra-relevant---he said, `not all of those garbage cans have diamonds hidden at the bottom of them'. Is that ever true of the internet! So much in the way of gym mythology/urban legend/cult folklore/whatever-you-call-it gets recycled (or just plain cycled) on the internet. Big increase in the quantity of information over even a decade ago, but probably not a big increase in the quality.

As far as separate arts suffering - secrets passed down only the deathbeds of the masters are, I hope, a thing of the past - and for myself, I am leery of people who think that only the select few acolytes should get the "mysterious and hidden secret of the art". Are arts melding and reforming? Certainly, at least to an extent - and the ones that aren't are often the ones that are slowly dying from their own lack of growth; at least, that's the way I see it. How many conversations have you seen about the lack of component "X" in a particular art, and the art(s) used as a source for filling in the gaps? Where do you think MMA came from in the first place? Or Jeet Kune Do? And it's been around, as far as I know, much longer than the widespread use of the internet.

Exactly---this is how martial arts emerge in the first place, including the ones we think of as `traditional'. My own guess is that if we really had complete histories, we'd find that MAs have always been in flux. Our view of them as ancient wisdom frozen in time is a media creation that feeds our desire for a heroic legendary history. Guys like Sokun Matsumura and Chojun Miyagi would probably have been baffled by it. They were practical guys who used whatever they needed to defend their king or whatever else they had to do.

Are some arts less "pure" than they used to be? Certainly. Is that good or bad? It depends on who you ask, their own open-mindedness, their goals, and their understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of their own styles. Arts have been melding - at least in terms of borrowing techniques from other arts - for much, if not all, of the 20th century and into the 21st - certainly, some have remained more "pure" than others, but it is the nature of martial arts, along with all other things, to grow and evolve. Does the internet facilitate this evolution? Sometimes... and sometimes the sheer quantity of information overwhelms attempts to use it. But overall, I see it as a positive thing.

Amen, Kacey!

 

[Rook]

I think the more information out there the better. No caveats, no "but maybes" about it from where I'm sitting.

Fakes and frauds thrive on obscurity. They love it when someone else creates a brand and they can then say they are part of it without having to know anything because no one else does either (or at least very few of their prospective students). Wonder why kung fu and ninjutsu are common targets for fraud? Everyone has heard of ninjas and shaolin kung fu, and very few have a good idea of what it SHOULD look like.

On the other hand, openness breeds reality. How many fake Judo teachers are there? Fake boxers? Fake greco-roman wrestlers? Their entire syllabus is on the web, every technique is in photo-illustrated English language books anyone can pick up at the local Barnes and Noble just a bus ride away for a couple bucks.

 

[Xue Sheng]

containment breeches or more so because of this medium? Is it/would it be a bad thing?

First I am old and I have been in this a long time so I tend to have a dinosaurs view I guess, but there use to be a lot more comradely between martial artists back in the stone age. I have often wondered what happened to that.

I feel that the Internet has been both a good thing and a bad thing.

The bad part: Not to any exposed secrecy or cross art contamination mind you but it has allowed people to use the anonymity of the web to hide and attack from the sidelines. And also due to what at least appears to me as a lack of MA brotherhood, caused the online battles of trying to prove whose art is tougher, better or more scientific to get out of hand.

Back when we were roaming with dinosaurs it generally ended up in a fairly friendly sparring match, and you learned from that where your weaknesses were. Sometimes you learned to keep your mouth shut around senior students…. Not that I would know this from experience mind you. :whip:

Let me say here that I am not advocating meeting people to beat them up or challenging someone to a sparring match to make your point, I am just saying that was my experience and there was very little anger involved.

The good part: It has fostered some of that old comradely between martial artist that otherwise would not have the opportunity to meet. And it has given people exposure to arts they could not get a chance to know about otherwise and it has also been of assistance to people that needed MA questions answered that otherwise may go unanswered.

Just my 2 cents

 

[pstarr]

Xue Sheng nailed it.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Our information on the internet ...might..,might..not ALL be true?

Martial artist are suppose to be humble and trueful!

Our hands and feet are weapons...the internet? ..is ..is OK most times...Aloha

 

[Rook]

First I am old and I have been in this a long time so I tend to have a dinosaurs view I guess, but there use to be a lot more comradely between martial artists back in the stone age. I have often wondered what happened to that.

I feel that the Internet has been both a good thing and a bad thing.

The bad part: Not to any exposed secrecy or cross art contamination mind you but it has allowed people to use the anonymity of the web to hide and attack from the sidelines. And also due to what at least appears to me as a lack of MA brotherhood, caused the online battles of trying to prove whose art is tougher, better or more scientific to get out of hand.

I hope my comment here will be taken in the spirit of brotherhood among MA. I love to look at things from every possible perspective, analyze strengths and weaknesses as I can see them, as others can see them, as our prececessors saw them and as our inheritors might see them. I love to challenge ideas - sometimes I get a creative answer that lets me step back and think some more, sometimes I get an evasion, sometimes I get a personal insult and a negative rep (perhaps as much because of how I say things as what I say), but I ussually learn something, and the longer debates go on, the more likely people are to step in with their own take on things.

Now, some people really are trolls who just want to get our blood pressure up. However, some great threads have been born from somebody with an agenda that got challenged and then the namecalling blossumed into real debate and informed exchanges of information, though not necessarily among the origional participants. Buried in all the insults there are sometimes some pearls of wisdom (sometimes not).

Back when we were roaming with dinosaurs it generally ended up in a fairly friendly sparring match, and you learned from that where your weaknesses were. Sometimes you learned to keep your mouth shut around senior students…. Not that I would know this from experience mind you. :whip:

Let me say here that I am not advocating meeting people to beat them up or challenging someone to a sparring match to make your point, I am just saying that was my experience and there was very little anger involved.

I wish we could do this more often. However, now that everybody is too deadly to spar, apparently we can't do this without being called apes.

The good part: It has fostered some of that old comradely between martial artist that otherwise would not have the opportunity to meet. And it has given people exposure to arts they could not get a chance to know about otherwise and it has also been of assistance to people that needed MA questions answered that otherwise may go unanswered.

Just my 2 cents

I agree.

Good to have you back XS. We missed you.

 

[Last Fearner]

I am all for the brotherhood of all Martial Artists, and I believe Martial Talk is the "cream of the crop" for fostering a positive dialogue among those with varied back-grounds. It is nice to share experiences, and compare notes on training, and I do not believe this hurts the true essence of any of our particular variations. If anything, it does help us to grow as individuals, and bond as a people with the same purpose and intent in training, and in life.

However, I am also aware that many of the forums on the internet do not meet the quality of Martial Talk, because this group is managed well by those who have a better understanding of true Martial Spirit, and mutual respect. There are other groups that do nothing but force their own, narrow views down the throats of their members, and bash or flame anyone who presents an opposing view. Many of the moderators on those other sites are not "Martial Artists" at all (even though the truly believe they are), but are more focused on fighting, and they're not very knowledgeable at that!

Another point on this subject of internet "yackin'" where I might have a different view than some is that I do believe in keeping advanced training a bit secret. Perhaps it is my military influence, or law enforcement and security industry training, but I feel that the less the bad guys know about what I know, keeps me safe. I enjoy sharing knowledge to help fellow Martial Artists with their pursuit in this field, but I think that we often take for granted that those who we are corresponding with are as honorable as we are, or that those who are reading these words do not have ill intentions for the valuable insights they are gaining.

There are criminals who study to use what they know against their victims in the street. There are those who would fight the police when being arrested, and pose a threat to us as we attempt to defend ourselves against their attacks. There are terrorists who use the internet to learn what they can about their chosen enemies, and apply any knowledge gained here as part of their terrorist training camp's curriculum.

How much talk is too much? It is tough to say, but I do believe that we can go too far in openly revealing anything, and everything that we know about how to defend ourselves. Should it be held to the "death bed of the Master?" I don't think so, but I believe the things beyond the basics, that do us the most good against a skilled opponent, should be reserved for personal instruction from a Master to the most dedicated of his or her Black Belts.

As I have said on this topic before, the frauds benefit from conversing with us. Anyone can defraud the public, and the best weapon is to inform the public, but I believe it should be to inform them of how training becomes legitimate, the value of proper credentials, and how to recognize and distinguish authentic credentials from phony ones.

It has been my experience that the frauds are more easily exposed when I can show my potential customers what it is that they others are saying which is false. The more the con-artists converse with the genuine article, the easier it is for them to look and sound like the real thing. Then, it boils down to teaching the public to scrutinize the actual documentation of a person's training, background, and Black Belt, or instructor certification.

This is my opinion
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Fu_Bag]

I've thought about this subject and this is one of the reasons I post at MT. When there is too much obscurity, unknowing people can be lead in the wrong direction for years and years. On the other hand, making things too clear and available online can lead to some problems. I've put some long and short ropes out there in some of my posts and some people out there might think I'm divulging too much of what I see and read in the books and videos. Of course, it's also entirely possible that what appears to be some grand secret is really just bait for frauds and secret sellers to hang themselves.

I'm no fan of "secret sellers" and those who use obsucurity to bait people into waiting "just a little longer" for "the deep, really meaningful stuff". There are some valid uses of that when you're waiting for someone to develop but it oftentimes amounts to $$$$$ in the bank for frauds. With regards to what bad people might do with good information, you do have to manage that but you also shouldn't think that the bad people don't already have the same level of knowledge and skill that you do. That's a dangerous mindset to have and to pass on to students.

I think that the best policy is to just be good ambassadors for your art. I can't say that I always represent what I'm studying properly, especially since I don't have a teacher at the moment, but I do the best that I can in trying to represent people who don't have the time, money, or access to a good teacher or training but still need to survive a dangerous environment everyday. I know I got a wee bit too involved in the last bout of unpleasantness here on MT but I hope that if people are looking for an accurate representation of ninjutsu, that they'll look toward Hatsumi-sensei as that representation, as I do, and not me.

I'm just some idiot trying to help my family survive an unpleasant situation at the moment. For me, the mindset training that's in Hatsumi-sensei's books and videos is of great help in that venture. If I happen to share something that helps someone who's actively training in the Bujinkan, even better.


BTW, Welcome back Xue Sheng Good to see you. About time Jeff finally agreed to share the pie with you!! (that's not a dirty remark, really...)

 

[Adept]

Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium?

I certainly hope so!

Is it/would it be a bad thing?

Definately not. I have something of a pet hate for tradition for it's own sake, and the idea of compartmentalising every different style.

People get too hung up on 'this is karate' or 'this is kung fu'. I prefer to just say 'this is martial arts'.

 

[exile]

The question `should we be more diligent in keeping the secrets of our MA to ourselves' implies that there are secrets to be kept. I'm kind of skeptical that there are any areas of real knowledge about the way the universe works that can be kept secret, and if they can't be, it's kind of futile to try even if you think that it's something one should do.

The most tightly guarded military secret in modern times was, arguably, the design of the hydrogen bomb that was discovered by the mathematician Stan Ulam. The problem was that the only way to get enough heat in one place to trigger a fusion chain reaction was to explode a smallish atomic bomb in close proximity to the fusion fuel material, creating a shock wave that would destroy the whole assembly almost instantaneously. Ulam's solution (which Edward Teller took the credit for) was the most heavily classified item in US military history... and was successively discovered by scientists in the UK, France, the Soviet Union, China India, and Pakistan! In fact, when certain radical publications based in Madison, Wisconsin were doing the background work that led to the public disclosure of this `secret' in the early 1980s, they found that third year graduate students in physics and nuclear engineering had worked out the critical elements of the solution for themselves. The nature of the problem essentially forced you to come to a certain conclusion. If the phenomenon is real and works, any solution that accounts for it is going to occur to anyone with the knowledge and intelligence necessary to solve the problem, and there are a lot of such people.

`Secret' kata interpretations are probably a very good example. We are suddenly seeing a rash of very good publications in the karate-based arts of Okinawa, Japan and Korea, which are pointing out explicit principles for devising kata bunkai and hyung boon hae, which yield some extremely effective, well thought out combat applications. These principles, whether given the way Iain Abernethy does, or Lawrench Kane & Kris Wilder, or Javier Martinez, or Simon John O'Neil, are based on intelligent observation of what the kata movement are, on knowledge of anatomy and physiology, and on good understandings of the strategic plan for successfully ending fights that these martial arts are built on. Nothing mystical or magical, no secret hermetic knowledge passed over hundreds of years in family lines or ancient monastic orders... just critical intelligence applied to an interesting problem: here are some movements in sequence that certain famous MA experts constructed as a documentation of fighting systems that they found particularly effective---how would I apply them, or something like them, to come out OK in a physically violent conflict with an unprincipled assailant?

If the H-bomb secret proved to be no mystery at all, how can something like kata interpretation hope to stay secret? To the extent that the MAs actually work, and aren't part of private, esoteric belief systems, to that extent people will be able to figure out everything important about them, given enough time, interest and imaginative thinking... just my $.02 worth...

 

[Rich Parsons]

I overheard a brief yet intriguing exchange at the store the other day ... one fellow asked another (I assume they were together) if he thought there was too much information being shared too freely across arts via internet chat mediums. The two seemed to have some trepidition, holding some value for traditionalism and art purity yet the other felt that brotherhood between arts was lacking and could be fostered this way. My gut feeling was that they both disagreed further than they were willing to discuss, and being short on time, I did not introduce myself with the interest of furthering the discussion.

What do you think? Are we benefitting? Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium? Is it/would it be a bad thing?

What do you think?
I think a lot. There are lots of things to discuss on this issue.


Are we benefitting?

Yes we are benefitting.


Are our separate arts suffering containment breeches or more so because of this medium?

Yes the arts are suffering.


Is it/would it be a bad thing?

Yes it is a bad thing.


It is bad and damaging is people see the political in fights and dirty laundry airing. It is good for people to realize that there are issue and that they should be looking for themselves and not for something or someone else.

It is bad as someone who knows little or nothing can become a recognized expert on the internet, the same goes for authors of books as well. It is good as there are people who do know and are willing to share.

It is bad as it is the internet and as mentioned a virtual medium for no physical conection can be made. It is good for people can read about other training methods and skills sets and techniques and ask questions of their instructor or possible go and meet new people at a meet and greet of a posted seminar or camp.

As in anything it is good and bad, it is a tool and it depends upon how it is used and or perceived.

Good topic

 

[MBuzzy]

I will always believe that the open sharing of information of this sort is a good thing.

But I completely agree with RP about the reliability of some sources. Anyone with a computer can post on the internet or get a website...making it very easy for bad information to get out there. The worst part is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to check your sources and background check information - as even some teachers are called into question on the internet.

 

[exile]

I will always believe that the open sharing of information of this sort is a good thing.

But I completely agree with RP about the reliability of some sources. Anyone with a computer can post on the internet or get a website...making it very easy for bad information to get out there. The worst part is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to check your sources and background check information - as even some teachers are called into question on the internet.

Sure---just like, freedom of speech doesn't guarantee accuracy of information. The problem you're talkng about here holds across the board for information on the internet. `Buyer beware' was never more true than it is now.

My impression of Shesulsa's query, though, is that it was more about whether the sharing of valid information about MA techniques and applications and so on was a good thing...