OMG a balanced video on MMA vs TMA?!?!?!?!?!

[jobo]

Muay Thai is more than just feet, knees, and punches. They are good with sensing when their opponent is off balance and how to take advantage of it. From the outside it looks like it's just the basics, but there's more to it than that. I allowed my brother to put me into a Muay Thai clinch because I wanted to experience it. When he locked me, he moved me so I would be off balance and as I tried to regain my balance, he kneed me. The entire 30 seconds was nothing but me trying to retain my balance and getting kneed. The only real option that I saw was to first stop him from taking my balance and to move him off balance when I thought he was going to attack. It almost reminded me of a Muay Thai push hands but with knees.

ok its knees elbows punches kicks and a bit of balance, what it isn't is elaborate as many of the tma, its just the basics of hitting. All these basics are contained in kung fu

 

[JowGaWolf]

wouldn't you just kick them in the leg, if their head was going up and down. Boxing is a very effective techneque unless people are allowed to kick you, in which case. Hands up guards' and bobbing heads are not a lot of use.
are you claiming that kicks are not included in tma?

If the guy is bobbing and weaving then he may be too close to land an effective kick. Here's an example.

When I watch Muay Thai fighters fight boxers, they go take the bobbing and weaving game out of the equation by attacking the legs first. This way the boxer doesn't get a chance to use that skill. If they are too close then the bobbing and weaving is going to cause some serious damage. It's a dangerous skill set but I don't know any TMA schools specifically train against it. I would personally like to train against it in my school but that would require a boxer with that skill set to come train with us. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone; yet.

 

[jobo]

If the guy is bobbing and weaving then he may be too close to land an effective kick. Here's an example.

When I watch Muay Thai fighters fight boxers, they go take the bobbing and weaving game out of the equation by attacking the legs first. This way the boxer doesn't get a chance to use that skill. If they are too close then the bobbing and weaving is going to cause some serious damage. It's a dangerous skill set but I don't know any TMA schools specifically train against it. I would personally like to train against it in my school but that would require a boxer with that skill set to come train with us. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone; yet.

if he is to close to kick you knee him, when we were discussing horse stance, you we're all against moving like a boxer whilst doing gung fu, no it seems your saying its unplayable ? Pick a position

 

[JowGaWolf]

ok its knees elbows punches kicks and a bit of balance, what it isn't is elaborate as many of the tma, its just the basics of hitting. All these basics are contained in kung fu

The basics aren't as basics as people think. It may be basic as being the easiest technique to learn in a system. I may be a core technique in the system, but actually deploying the technique is far from basic. You have many TMA practitioners that can do basic martial arts stuff and still fail at deploying it in a sparring match. There's 2 main levels of learning martial arts. 1st level is doing the technique. 2nd level is deploying the technique.

Grappling systems seem to be the only martial arts where #1 and #2 are the same thing. In the striking systems, like kung fu, you'll see tons of people reach the 1st level and be total garbage at the 2nd level.

 

[jobo]

The basics aren't as basics as people think. It may be basic as being the easiest technique to learn in a system. I may be a core technique in the system, but actually deploying the technique is far from basic. You have many TMA practitioners that can do basic martial arts stuff and still fail at deploying it in a sparring match. There's 2 main levels of learning martial arts. 1st level is doing the technique. 2nd level is deploying the technique.

Grappling systems seem to be the only martial arts where #1 and #2 are the same thing. In the striking systems, like kung fu, you'll see tons of people reach the 1st level and be total garbage at the 2nd level.

I said that, its basic kung fu skills, applied very well, with intensity and a considerable amount of fitness. Kung fu experts can't take them on, as they have spent to much time in horse stance and nowhere near enough with a skipping rope, a heavy bag or a decent oppoinent who is hitting back

 

[JowGaWolf]

if he is to close to kick you knee him, when we were discussing horse stance, you we're all against moving like a boxer whilst doing gung fu, no it seems your saying its unplayable ? Pick a position

I'm against moving like a boxer while doing kung fu because if you are fighting against someone who knows what they are doing and understands how boxers move, then you are get kicked and kneed. If the person who is doing kung fu isn't good at using kung fu then by all means move like a boxer. This is not an either or situation. It's always in the context of who you are facing and the skill level of the fighters.

here's an example that shows both points. It highlights the the Muay Thai fighter keeping his distance, It highlights the boxers ability to move, and the boxer moved so well that the Muay Thai fighter decided to pick him up. The movement as a boxer worked well against the Muay Thai fighters punches but put him in a bad position which made it easy for the Muay Thai fighter to take him to the ground.

boxing vs tkd

 

[jobo]

I'm against moving like a boxer while doing kung fu because if you are fighting against someone who knows what they are doing and understands how boxers move, then you are get kicked and kneed. If the person who is doing kung fu isn't good at using kung fu then by all means move like a boxer. This is not an either or situation. It's always in the context of who you are facing and the skill level of the fighters.

here's an example that shows both points. It highlights the the Muay Thai fighter keeping his distance, It highlights the boxers ability to move, and the boxer moved so well that the Muay Thai fighter decided to pick him up. The movement as a boxer worked well against the Muay Thai fighters punches but put him in a bad position which made it easy for the Muay Thai fighter to take him to the ground.

boxing vs tkd

we are talking about kung fu, v a fighter that moves like a boxer,ie doesnt stand still in a horse stance, kick boxer are boxer who kick and so move like a boxer by defintion.

your point was if a person is fast moving a kung fu guy can't hit him. The answer is plainly obvious, move your self

 

[JowGaWolf]

its basic kung fu skills, applied very well, with intensity and a considerable amount of fitness

Most people have trouble applying the TMA basics the attacks that they get in the school aren't representative of how people actually attack each other. So from a training point they are already behind. I can train against a long fist punch or an overhead hammer fist strike all day long for many years and still never be able to translate that defensive technique in a modern context. Unless I fight a guy like this, then my many hours of training against such an attack isn't going to be helpful.

Props for this guy. He would have "scored major points" had he been able to pull it off. But unfortunately he didn't know how to deploy it and as a result he got punched in his face.

 

[Juany118]

MT is a very simple system of all out assault using feet knee elbows and punches. All or those are common place in kung fu. It's not the techniques' that are greatly different its the intensity of the delivery and the fitness of the fighters

but anyway he seemed to be talking in a far more general sense just there is no defence against a MT low kick. But then anybody can do one of them with a bit of practise

I think @JowGaWolf covered it but it goes beyond bobbing and weaving to tactics as well. As an example, something that is kinda both a technique and a tactic, bursting in Krav Maga. Striking without cocking an arm, just essentially charging? It's little things but they are important.

 

[jobo]

Most people have trouble applying the TMA basics the attacks that they get in the school aren't representative of how people actually attack each other. So from a training point they are already behind. I can train against a long fist punch or an overhead hammer fist strike all day long for many years and still never be able to translate that defensive technique in a modern context. Unless I fight a guy like this, then my many hours of training against such an attack isn't going to be helpful.

Props for this guy. He would have "scored major points" had he been able to pull it off. But unfortunately he didn't know how to deploy it and as a result he got punched in his face.

???????????????????????????
you point was kung fu cant hold up against "modern attacks. I asked what modern attacks were and you said boxing type movements.
the reason they can't cope with a mobile oppoinent, is because they ate so un mobile themselves . There is nothing at all wrong with tcma other than an obsession with stable footwork
at the moment you seem to be arguing both points of view in alternative posts

 

[JowGaWolf]

we are talking about kung fu, v a fighter that moves like a boxer,ie doesnt stand still in a horse stance,

I have never had a discussion like that. I'm the kung fu guy that's always saying that it's possible to move fast while in a horse stance. You confuse me with someone else.

your point was if a person is fast moving a kung fu guy can't hit him. The answer is plainly obvious, move your self

My point is that boxers are great evasive fighters who can slip a punch and counter, and just because a person knows kung fu, doesn't make that boxing skill any less dangerous. I've shown 2 videos of a boxer winning against a martial artist and a boxer losing against a martial artists. Like I said it's not an either or discussion.

 

[jobo]

I think @JowGaWolf covered it but it goes beyond bobbing and weaving to tactics as well. As an example, something that is kinda both a technique and a tactic, bursting in Krav Maga. Striking without cocking an arm, just essentially charging? It's little things but they are important.

so is charging a modern attack, did people not charge in the days when tmas were new?

 

[jobo]

I have never had a discussion like that. I'm the kung fu guy that's always saying that it's possible to move fast while in a horse stance. You confuse me with someone else.


My point is that boxers are great evasive fighters who can slip a punch and counter, and just because a person knows kung fu, doesn't make that boxing skill any less dangerous. I've shown 2 videos of a boxer winning against a martial artist and a boxer losing against a martial artists. Like I said it's not an either or discussion.

you cant move fast, ie travel across the ground whilst in a horse stance, any speed you can achieve will be slower than someone on straight legs. ??? A boxer is a martial arts as well

 

[JowGaWolf]

you point was kung fu cant hold up against "modern attacks. I asked what modern attacks were and you said boxing type movements.

Show me 1 Traditional Martial Art school that trains against the movements and techniques of boxing. Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, take your pick and not Sanda. Show me one Karate school that trains to fight against boxing type movements and techniques of boxing. The closest I've seen to this would be. Master Wong

Check out the schools in your area and see if you can find a TMA that trains against boxing movements and techniques.

 

[jobo]

Show me 1 Traditional Martial Art school that trains against the movements and techniques of boxing. Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, take your pick and not Sanda. Show me one Karate school that trains to fight against boxing type movements and techniques of boxing. The closest I've seen to this would be. Master Wong

Check out the schools in your area and see if you can find a TMA that trains against boxing movements and techniques.

well the one i attend does, but the question would be WHY are you not training to fight a mobile and fast oppoinent .

mobile and fast opponents' are not new and must have been around in the " old days"

 

[JowGaWolf]

well the one i attend does, but the question would be WHY are you not training to fight a mobile and fast oppoinent .

mobile and fast opponents' are not new and must have been around in the " old days"

I said show me, don't tell me.

 

[jobo]

I said show me, don't tell me.

if you want to see you need to come on Wednesday, other that yoil have to take my word

but why are you not training to fight fast and mobile people

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The basics aren't as basics as people think. It may be basic as being the easiest technique to learn in a system. I may be a core technique in the system, but actually deploying the technique is far from basic. You have many TMA practitioners that can do basic martial arts stuff and still fail at deploying it in a sparring match. There's 2 main levels of learning martial arts. 1st level is doing the technique. 2nd level is deploying the technique.

Grappling systems seem to be the only martial arts where #1 and #2 are the same thing. In the striking systems, like kung fu, you'll see tons of people reach the 1st level and be total garbage at the 2nd level.

I'd argue there's still that distinction in grappling. If someone has never grappled with resistance, they'll never pull it off against someone who is actually resisting, unless they get lucky (or the other guy is really bad).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Show me 1 Traditional Martial Art school that trains against the movements and techniques of boxing. Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Wing Chun, take your pick and not Sanda. Show me one Karate school that trains to fight against boxing type movements and techniques of boxing. The closest I've seen to this would be. Master Wong

Check out the schools in your area and see if you can find a TMA that trains against boxing movements and techniques.

Many of the schools I've visited do. The problem is the one you referenced earlier: how good are they at replicating what they're training against? If they're doing a decent job of replicating it (or someone comes in who is skilled in it), they'll learn to defend against it. If they replicate it poorly, they'll learn to defend against something that's not the same.

 

[drop bear]

If the guy is bobbing and weaving then he may be too close to land an effective kick. Here's an example.

When I watch Muay Thai fighters fight boxers, they go take the bobbing and weaving game out of the equation by attacking the legs first. This way the boxer doesn't get a chance to use that skill. If they are too close then the bobbing and weaving is going to cause some serious damage. It's a dangerous skill set but I don't know any TMA schools specifically train against it. I would personally like to train against it in my school but that would require a boxer with that skill set to come train with us. Unfortunately I don't know of anyone; yet.

The issue you have is they are moving in to a strike. Very similar to dodging to your left.

So you dodge to your left. Come close to that right hand and pow. Right in the kisser.

Now say I throw a right hand and you dodge to the right. But you go too far. Then you have moved your head towards my right foot. You eat a shin in your face.