OMG a balanced video on MMA vs TMA?!?!?!?!?!

[Gerry Seymour]

its only a strengh if it effective,what are you going to compare it effectivness against if not judo?

It can be effective, without being the best. In-close grappling is what Judo is mostly about. We have a wider range (striking, distance grappling, weapons), so it's unsurprising that Judo is stronger within their wheelhouse than us.

If someone can bench 400 pounds, he is strong. Just because the next guy benches 550, that fact doesn't change.

 

[jobo]

It can be effective, without being the best. In-close grappling is what Judo is mostly about. We have a wider range (striking, distance grappling, weapons), so it's unsurprising that Judo is stronger within their wheelhouse than us.

If someone can bench 400 pounds, he is strong. Just because the next guy benches 550, that fact doesn't change.

the question was, what you comparing its effectiveness with?

 

[geezer]

nb I'd count a style that requires a deformed hand as having a major weakness, its a bit more than not being convenient or practical

Sorry I lost you on this. Are you referencing "iron palm" training? ...in Wing Chun? According to my old Chinese sifu (a student of Yip Man) iron palm is not a part of WC/VT although some have added it in.

Oh ...and to Juany. Don't put too much faith in mystical Chinese herbal remedies. Jow may help a bit, same as other patent medicine liniments. But a lot of that stuff is superstitious, useless, even harmful crap. Heck, in China they still market powdered rhino horn and pay more for it than gold, ...also tiger penis, fruit-bat and a whole bunch of other endangered species. And look what happened to the emperor Qin Shi Huang. He probably died from the immortality elixirs containing cinnabar his physicians prescribed. OK, so that was over 2,200 years ago. Still, as with all pre-scientific and non-scientific medical theories, there's some good, some indifferent, and a lot of rubbish ....and no agreement on which is which.

 

[Juany118]

its only a strengh if it effective,what are you going to compare it effectivness against if not judo?

Because having a "strength" doesn't by definition mean "superior". As an example @gpseymour said Close standing grappling was A strength of NGA. If that was ALL NGA did then yes it would be an issue in terms of a comparison to Judo BUT NGA also has a stronger striking component than Judo. As has been pointed out already comparison between arts is complicated.

 

[Juany118]

Sorry I lost you on this. Are you referencing "iron palm" training? ...in Wing Chun? According to my old Chinese sifu (a student of Yip Man) iron palm is not a part of WC/VT although some have added it in.

Oh ...and to Juany. Don't put too much faith in mystical Chinese herbal remedies. Jow may help a bit, same as other patent medicine liniments. But a lot of that stuff is superstitious, useless, even harmful crap. Heck, in China they still market powdered rhino horn and pay more for it than gold, ...also tiger penis, fruit-bat and a whole bunch of other endangered species. And look what happened to the emperor Qin Shi Huang. He probably died from the immortality elixirs containing cinnabar his physicians prescribed. OK, so that was over 2,200 years ago. Still, as with all pre-scientific and non-scientific medical theories, there's some good, some indifferent, and a lot of rubbish ....and no agreement on which is which.

I am just basing my experience with Jow off of one I use regularly... Lau Family Jow. It is a very effective topical analgesic and, in my experience helps minimize bruising. It's probably only a handful of the multitude of herbs in there that does the work, but work it does. I refer to it as "aspercreme on steroids" because it does this in the same way aspercreme works, without feeling "hot or cold". The first time I used it, and got sold, was one night at class as it's what my Sifu uses. During knife sparring on the Kali side a thrust got into the gap of my gloves and nailed me between the index and middle finger. It hurt like hell and my hand swelled there almost like I had a boxers fracture. I put the Jow on it and the pain was greatly reduced and while I had the swelling I had little to no bruising, which surprised me as we were using the rather thick Sharkee Training knives.

 

[jobo]

Because having a "strength" doesn't by definition mean "superior". As an example @gpseymour said Close standing grappling was A strength of NGA. If that was ALL NGA did then yes it would be an issue in terms of a comparison to Judo BUT NGA also has a stronger striking component than Judo. As has been pointed out already comparison between arts is complicated.

if your stating that something is a strengh, then you must be measuring that someway.
its a simple question

 

[Juany118]

if your stating that something is a strengh, then you must be measuring that someway.
its a simple question

You measure it holistically against the art itself (what is a primary focus of training) and against a MULTITUDE of arts not simply one that is seen as preeminent in a particular field .

 

[jobo]

Sorry I lost you on this. Are you referencing "iron palm" training? ...in Wing Chun? According to my old Chinese sifu (a student of Yip Man) iron palm is not a

You measure it holistically against the art itself .

how do you measure it,against the art its self??? That won't tell if the grappling os good or not

 

[jobo]

You measure it holistically against the art itself .

how,do you measure it against the art its self????

 

[Juany118]

how,do you measure it against the art its self????

I put the manner in parantheses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the question was, what you comparing its effectiveness with?

Effectiveness is not comparative. Something doesn't have to be "more effective" to be effective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if your stating that something is a strengh, then you must be measuring that someway.
its a simple question

Measuring isn't the same as comparing.

 

[jobo]

Effectiveness is not comparative. Something doesn't have to be "more effective" to be effective.

well yes and no, if you are going to make a blanket statement that something is,effective, its then incumbent on you to to state effective against who? As soon as you do so,( which you have,so far refused to do) then you are drawing a,comparison .
so is your grappling effective against a 10 stone drunks with no strengh balance or co ordination. ? Is it effective against a co operating oppoinent, i
is it effective against a skilled striker who will knock you over before you ever get hold of their arm,is it effective against a weight lifted who has considerably more strength than you.
if it effective against a another grappling art like judo or bjj

so yes to state something,as effective you do need to make,a,comparison as to who it is effective,against

So again how have you measured ,by comparison or otherwise the effectiveness of your grappling

 

[lklawson]

well yes and no, if you are going to make a blanket statement that something is,effective, its then incumbent on you to to state effective against who? As soon as you do so,( which you have,so far refused to do) then you are drawing a,comparison .
so is your grappling effective against a 10 stone drunks with no strengh balance or co ordination. ? Is it effective against a co operating oppoinent, i
is it effective against a skilled striker who will knock you over before you ever get hold of their arm,is it effective against a weight lifted who has considerably more strength than you.
if it effective against a another grappling art like judo or bjj

so yes to state something,as effective you do need to make,a,comparison as to who it is effective,against

So again how have you measured ,by comparison or otherwise the effectiveness of your grappling

I kinda follow a self defense/personal combat philosophy which starts with most likely and leads eventually to least likely. First be efficacious with the most likely scenario or opponent. Worry about #2 after you've first nailed down #1.

In your examples, is the most likely opponent going to be "a 10 stone drunks with no strengh balance or co ordination," an experienced Judoka or BJJ player, or something else?

I strongly suspect that "something else" and "drunk weakling" are far more likely than Judo/BJJ simply based on statistics of the percent of the population who practice any martial art at all*, never-mind Judo/BJJ in specific.

So, in your examples, "effective" seems likely to be applicable to the most likely, even if not necessarily "effective" when applied to the least likely.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


*Surveys usually put this at about 1/2 of 1% of the U.S. population have trained in a martial art at least once during the year.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well yes and no, if you are going to make a blanket statement that something is,effective, its then incumbent on you to to state effective against who? As soon as you do so,( which you have,so far refused to do) then you are drawing a,comparison .
so is your grappling effective against a 10 stone drunks with no strengh balance or co ordination. ? Is it effective against a co operating oppoinent, i
is it effective against a skilled striker who will knock you over before you ever get hold of their arm,is it effective against a weight lifted who has considerably more strength than you.
if it effective against a another grappling art like judo or bjj

so yes to state something,as effective you do need to make,a,comparison as to who it is effective,against

So again how have you measured ,by comparison or otherwise the effectiveness of your grappling

That's not nearly the same as comparing it to Judo. BJJ is effective against Judo. Its in-close standing grappling is probably not as strong as ours, and our ground game (a weakness in NGA, typically) is not in the same league as either one. Our striking will be better than either. All three are effective, and none are better in all areas.

 

[jobo]

That's not nearly the same as comparing it to Judo. BJJ is effective against Judo. Its in-close standing grappling is probably not as strong as ours, and our ground game (a weakness in NGA, typically) is not in the same league as either one. Our striking will be better than either. All three are effective, and none are better in all areas.

its not a hard question, against who is your grappling effective

 

[jobo]

I kinda follow a self defense/personal combat philosophy which starts with most likely and leads eventually to least likely. First be efficacious with the most likely scenario or opponent. Worry about #2 after you've first nailed down #1.

In your examples, is the most likely opponent going to be "a 10 stone drunks with no strengh balance or co ordination," an experienced Judoka or BJJ player, or something else?

I strongly suspect that "something else" and "drunk weakling" are far more likely than Judo/BJJ simply based on statistics of the percent of the population who practice any martial art at all*, never-mind Judo/BJJ in specific.

So, in your examples, "effective" seems likely to be applicable to the most likely, even if not necessarily "effective" when applied to the least likely.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


*Surveys usually put this at about 1/2 of 1% of the U.S. population have trained in a martial art at least once during the year.

I was just giving him some possible comparisons

but yes, from a self defence point of view a judo black belt is an unlikely attacker. But fit strong people with reasonable balance and,co ordination are not at all unlikely. So if you believe you method to be effective, then you must have factored such people into your assessment

I must be unlucky, if I get road raged, its always someone who looks,like a middle weight boxer, its never weak skinny people or fat old people threatening to get out and punch me

 

[Gerry Seymour]

its not a hard question, against who is your grappling effective

Against most people. Probably not against Tony Dismukes.

 

[jobo]

Against most people. Probably not against Tony Dismukes.

this is like pulling teeth, and how have you measured or otherwise assessed that it effective against " most" people ?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

this is like pulling teeth, and how have you measured or otherwise assessed that it effective against " most" people ?

Sorry, not playing your game.