Ok my issue with thinking that specificity allways means most appropriate

[skribs]

but if you are teaching self defence. To weak out of condition people, you are conning them, taking their money under,a lie, that they can,adequately defend themselves

You are teaching them the techniques they would use. Experience and muscle memory are much more important than physical condition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no you can't, not if the person attacking n them is notably physically superior to them, as may well be he case

So, you’d have them wait 6 months to start developing skill? Okay, now they still can’t defend anything they couldn’t 6 weeks later. In my scenario, they are better equipped, because they are working on skill while they start their fitness. If they decide not to pursue fitness outside class, I’ll do what I can for them, and they will still be significantly better equipped than if they did nothing.

Note that I said “simple attacks” - that refers to single attacks (no flurries) that are restrained (no tackles or slams). Most of those, I can even train them to escape even someone’s notably more fit, assuming that person isn’t skilled.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

but if you are teaching self defence. To weak out of condition people, you are conning them, taking their money under,a lie, that they can,adequately defend themselves

So, you’d have weak people just give up?

 

[drop bear]

You are sorta right, but I think for the wrong reason. Yes, actually specifically training for a venue DOES make the training more appropriate and therefore more likely to succeed. "If." IF it's the right training and that training actually addresses things which are specific to that venue. There are some generalities such as strength and cardio fitness. But training in punching, kicking, takedowns, and groundwork is going to be very limited value if you're part of a 5-man Fire Team equipped with small arms (M4, SAW, etc.) and facing groups of similarly armed people. Conversely, if you are highly trained in small-group maneuvering and tactics, with small arms but never trained anything pas MAC in basic, then you're gonna get your butt handed to you in the ring.

Yes, specific training for the venue does make you better at that venue. But just thinking you have the right "specific training" doesn't actually make it so.

That is wrong on so many levels.

People don't know that they don't know.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

My theory on training is you look at the results. And I learned this from looking at survival stuff. Taxtical machete vs gardening machete. One isnt better for gardening and one isnt better for being tactical.

The features define its use. Not its purpose.

So yes specific features of training will be better for different environments. But you cant tell from the label.

 

[jobo]

So, you’d have weak people just give up?

no, i said refer them to the nearest step aerobics class, or what ever takes their fancy, anything but fill their heads with nonsense about defending themselves, with a neat trick or two

 

[jobo]

You are teaching them the techniques they would use. Experience and muscle memory are much more important than physical condition.

that's nonsense

 

[drop bear]

Quality vs. Quantity.

If you have two competent teachers, one who spends 10 minutes of each class on self defense and one who spends 45 minutes of each class on self defense, you're going to get better self defense learning from the 2nd teacher.

If you have a stellar teacher who spends 10 minutes on self defense, and a competent teacher who spends 45 minutes, then it will likely depend on the student (if you practice a lot on your own you might get more out of the stellar teacher, but if you need class to practice you will get more out of the competent teacher).

If you have a competent teacher who spends 10 minutes on self defense, and a terrible teacher who spends 45 minutes, then you'll definitely get more out of the 10 minutes.

Exept that training doesnt work like that.

It is not a realistic trade off that for some reason a teacher who is a specific expert has to have some sort of deficiency in basics or something.

So while we can say all other things being equal so on and so on. All other things rarely are equal. I mean if I am big and strong I can also be technical. Nothing topping me.

 

[drop bear]

i think people who run( short) self defend,courses are snake oil salesmen( or women) .

once you have told them not to go out on their own, lock there doors and all the other very obvious stuff, they should tell them they are not strong enough, not fast enough and don't have,sufficient cardio, tell them to hit the gym for,6 months and then sign on to a proper ma class. Instead they give tips that are border line useless and charge some times a lot of money for it, absolutely shameless

nb that vid never got round to telling you what to do if someone,a 100 lbs heavier pins you to the floor

That video wouldnt handle someone 20 lbs lighter.

 

[drop bear]

In my hapkido class we get yelled at if we use more than 1% of our strength. So I'd say practice comes before physical training in there.

Strength is technique. We mesure strength by how much we can move. If we dont have good technique we are physically not as strong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

no, i said refer them to the nearest step aerobics class, or what ever takes their fancy, anything but fill their heads with nonsense about defending themselves, with a neat trick or two

Or - radical thought here - they could get training in stuff that isn’t “a neat trick or two” (sideways insults will get you nowhere) that will also help them develop coordination and contribute to their fitness. But you know all there is to know of martial training, given your dismissal of a weak/unfit person’s ability to do anything remotely effective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exept that training doesnt work like that.

It is not a realistic trade off that for some reason a teacher who is a specific expert has to have some sort of deficiency in basics or something.

So while we can say all other things being equal so on and so on. All other things rarely are equal. I mean if I am big and strong I can also be technical. Nothing topping me.

Now you’re going beyond your own topic, DB. You’re implying that non-situational training will be superior, because that’s where the superior teachers are. Or have I missed your point?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That video wouldnt handle someone 20 lbs lighter.

I consider my groundwork marginal, and that video makes me look really good.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Now you’re going beyond your own topic, DB. You’re implying that non-situational training will be superior, because that’s where the superior teachers are. Or have I missed your point?

That's been the point I've gotten from it every time he talks about this topic. Basically even if specificity mattered, the teachers/training methods matter more, and it's a lot easier to determine a teacher/gyms competency if it competes, so the safer option is always to go with the style/place that actively competes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's been the point I've gotten from it every time he talks about this topic. Basically even if specificity mattered, the teachers/training methods matter more, and it's a lot easier to determine a teacher/gyms competency if it competes, so the safer option is always to go with the style/place that actively competes.

When phrased that way, it’s a reasonable argument and not without merit. His previous post, however, appears to be making a value judgement about folks on the other side.

 

[drop bear]

Now you’re going beyond your own topic, DB. You’re implying that non-situational training will be superior, because that’s where the superior teachers are. Or have I missed your point?

Missed the point.

The distinction while true but is unhelpful when it then tries to lead you to believe there is some sort of practical quality to making the distinction.

Technique vs strength is a good clear example.

Except technical fighters can be strong. In which case for training purposes your technique vs strength distinction doesn't work. And you get beaten on both fronts.

And it is just a bad training tool. Because we know that we really need to improve both.


How do I beat a more technical guy? How do I beat a stronger guy? How do I beat a bigger,taller,fatter, slimmer, older, younger. It doesn't matter. The steps to becoming better don't really change.

I do street which is why I can't do sport.

I wrestle which is why I can't box.

It's balls. But it gets used all the time.

 

[drop bear]

That's been the point I've gotten from it every time he talks about this topic. Basically even if specificity mattered, the teachers/training methods matter more, and it's a lot easier to determine a teacher/gyms competency if it competes, so the safer option is always to go with the style/place that actively competes.

What is stopping a solid street system say for example being able to box?

Why would they have such poor mechanics?

Do they think they won't face punches in the street?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Training self defence makes you better at self defence and so on.

When a boxing girl challenged a Kung Fu girl, the Kung Fu girl accepted the challenge. During the challenge day, the boxing girl brought her boxing gloves. The kung Fu girl brought her Guan Dao.

What's wrong with this challenge fight? (I love to show off my wife's Guan Dao picture. )

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What is stopping a solid street system say for example being able to box?

Why would they have such poor mechanics?

Do they think they won't face punches in the street?

When was it stated that street systems wouldn't learn how to box? In one of my kempo schools, primarily self-defense, both of my instructors regularly had kickboxing matches. That knowledge of theres was incorporated into their teaching of the system, even though the system as a whole was still kempo.

 

[drop bear]

When a boxing girl challenged a Kung Fu girl, the Kung Fu girl accepted the challenge. During the challenge day, the boxing girl brought her boxing gloves. The kung Fu girl brought her Guan Dao.

What's wrong with this challenge fight? (I love to show off my wife's Guan Dao picture. )

Yeah. But that is an old gag as well.

 

[drop bear]

When was it stated that street systems wouldn't learn how to box? In one of my kempo schools, primarily self-defense, both of my instructors regularly had kickboxing matches. That knowledge of theres was incorporated into their teaching of the system, even though the system as a whole was still kempo.

Hence the concept of specific being better isn't valid there either.

I mean it should work both ways.