Oh...My...Goodness! Hybrids anyone?

[Sam]

this may be my 16 year old naivete speaking here, but I don't see how they can call this a crisis.

They teach you in 3rd grade about supply and demand. We KNEW this was a limited resource, we KNEW we as a planet were using more and more and more... my dad was taught in grade school (in the mid 50's) that the world would run out of this resource by 2000. Well, it was a little off the mark... but we knew this was coming and we (as a country and world) didn't devote as much time and money and research as we could have to find alternatives.

it appears to me as if we made our own bed and now we are lying in it.

 

[ave_turuta]

Last time I filled up, I payed $2.09/gallon. What are you paying?

Nothing. I don't own a car. I am 28 years old and still do not know how to drive. Public bus, metro, and my two perfectly-working legs seem to be able to take me anywhere I need to go, with a few important exceptions

(granted, I live in DC). I'll say one thing, though: as long as this country keeps worshiping the car as it's demi-god, no solution will be found for this problem. We allow for the construction of inifinite number of very expensive highways to accommodate the ever-expanding population, yet we seem to be unable to build efficient, modern, reliable means of public transportation for those of us who wish to be more respectful towards our environment and our health...

As a foreigner, I am astonished (and worried) by the excessive reliance Americans show towards their cars. I mean, yes: distances are long here, but modifying some of our habits would lead to a decrease in car-reliance and by extension in oil-consumption. European countries have developed an extensive network of public transportation (trains, buses, subway, and trams) that work in a reliable manner and save billions of money to taxpayers and are much more eco-friendly. I have used public transportation in places like northern and southern Spain, Catalonia, parts of France, Switzerland, northern and southern England, and Germany, and have always been able to transport myself pretty much anywhere I wanted to go without a car at affordable prices. In the States, however, this is not possible due to lack of an efficient and reliable public transportation network.

Two examples: my parents live in northern Spain in a town of 60,000 inhabitants. My dad takes the car out of the garage only on Sundays to drive for 6 miles, to go to the nearby beach or woods. Even without a car, they could still take the bus but they usually make an exception. The rest of the week, the car remains parked in the garage. Grecery shopping gets done on a daily basis - my parents carry their shopping bags by hand, walking (sometimes they go to a supermarket that is a good 25 minute walk away, each way). Second example: next week I must travel a mere 30 miles to get a certificate from a government office. There is, simply put, no way of getting there with public transportation (there's only one bus going there in the morning and another bus coming back at 3 pm, which I cannot catch because my appointment is at 2). I am either left with the option of taking a taxi-cab, or seek the help of a friend. And it's only 30 miles away (it's not like I am going trekking or something, I am just going to a government building!!!)

Perhaps personal responsibility and different consumption habits could help us rethink our excessively car-reliant culture in the US?

Respectfully,

A.T.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Nothing. I don't own a car. I am 28 years old and still do not know how to drive. Public bus, metro, and my two perfectly-working legs seem to be able to take me anywhere I need to go

(granted, I live in DC).

Makes me yearn for city life.

I'll say one thing, though: as long as this country keeps worshiping the car as it's demi-god, no solution will be found for this problem. We allow for the construction of inifinite number of very expensive highways to accommodate the ever-expanding population,

Too true; however, there certainly are many who live quite some distance from their occupation, even in the cities. I myself live in very lightly populated rural area that is quite a distance from the nearest market.
If I remember correctly, the interstate system was initially meant for the allowance of rapid military movement across the mainland. Now, the interstates have the responsibility to carry our incredibly important commercial transportation vehicles. The people in the cities would starve to death without trucks travelling tthe interstate system bringing food from across the nation. It is a necessity.
As far as the "car worship" comment is concerned, I believe that we should have out grown the combustion engine several decades ago. Look at how rapidly our computer technology industry has evolved. Can the automotive industry not evolve as well? It is quite possible that progress has been stalled simply for the sake of corporate profit.

Perhaps personal responsibility and different consumption habits could help us rethink our excessively car-reliant culture in the US?

I don't really agree that it is irresponsible to own and use a car. The technology itself, while once useful, is the destructor here. We absolutely cannot have seven billion people driving personal vehicles powered by combustion technology. The technology must change. Period.

I enjoyed your post! Absolutely delightful!

 

[Tgace]

But very few of the reasons given by analysts are given as a supply problem. I remember back in the 70's waiting in line on the "even/odd" day cycles to get gas. This isnt about scarcity, its about money.

 

[ave_turuta]

Makes me yearn for city life.

Too true; however, there certainly are many who live quite some distance from their occupation, even in the cities. I myself live in very lightly populated rural area that is quite a distance from the nearest market.
If I remember correctly, the interstate system was initially meant for the allowance of rapid military movement across the mainland. Now, the interstates have the responsibility to carry our incredibly important commercial transportation vehicles. The people in the cities would starve to death without trucks travelling tthe interstate system bringing food from across the nation. It is a necessity.
As far as the "car worship" comment is concerned, I believe that we should have out grown the combustion engine several decades ago. Look at how rapidly our computer technology industry has evolved. Can the automotive industry not evolve as well? It is quite possible that progress has been stalled simply for the sake of corporate profit.

I don't really agree that it is irresponsible to own and use a car. The technology itself, while once useful, is the destructor here. We absolutely cannot have seven billion people driving personal vehicles powered by combustion technology. The technology must change. Period.

I enjoyed your post! Absolutely delightful!

Thanks!

Actually, a good and even more terrifying example is China. Some of my colleagues are Chinese, and I have exchanged views with them on this particular topic. It appears that individual car usage in China is presently skyrocketing in urban areas, with highways being built at lightning speed and agricultural lands being destroyed very rapidly. I am a person who thinks that resource consumption is a matter that needs to be addressed in global terms, and unfortunately the global trend is not towards less consumption, but more (due mostly to changes in consumption habit as well as ever-expanding population, save for European countries where population growth seems to be stable).

One side comment: I do not think, nor would I ever argue, that having or using a car is irresponsible. As with everything else, using a car in a repsonsible manner cannot be a bad thing. Sometimes I do find myself wishing i had a car to do the most cumbersome tasks in this country, such as groceries (the supermarket is not far, but it is a good walk and it gets tiresome) or simply being able to go to places I cannot access with public transportation (like going to a park or natural reserve). But regardless of my personal situation, I still think that the use of the car in our culture (and I mean the US) is extremely irresponsible, and urban sprawl is certainly not contributing to making it any better.

I hear that there are folks who work in the DC metro area and live in places as far as.... West Virginia!!!! I am not kidding: growth (both population-wise and residential) is truly getting out of control. Some counties seem very concerned with this kind of growth (i.e. Loudon county in Virginia) butothers seem to welcome it as a form of "economic development." i don't understand how environmentla destruction and all its associated costs (worse health conditions for the population, increase in stress and commute times, etc. etc.) can be considered "development."

With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay).

Peace,
A.T.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Do a search on line and research your hybrid before you buy.

** Note I work on hybrids now, and I still am telling you to do your research even though that means one or more less sales **

Many of the Hybrids, do not get the fuel economy they claim. Some of the Japanese companies have used the tests (* Just like the America Comapnies in the past *) to optimize their fuel economy numbers for the test. Actual real world numebrs are much less.

Search for a class action law suit against some of these companies.

Let us look at the cost and return for the buying of a hybrid.

The Average Hybrid is about $6,000 more than the non hybrid version of the car.

Let us say Gas is $3.00 per Gallon.

Let us say we drive 60 miles per day.

Let us say we get 38 mpg for a small car.

Then we buy a hybrid at 51 mpg (* Assumption real world mileage is even close to this *)

5 Years Regular car costs $8644 - Hybrid is $6441 - Savings $2203

10 Years Regular car costs $17289 - Hybrid is $12882 - Savins $4407

So Similiar cars will not gain the cost back in 10 years.

Now if you look at change sizes of cars and actually going to something smaller then it should pay off.

Let us say Gas is $3.00 per Gallon.

Let us say we drive 60 miles per day.

Let us say we get 38 mpg for a small car.

Then we buy a hybrid at 51 mpg (* Assumption real world mileage is even close to this *)


Now my V6 Manual Convertible Firebird gets 27 MPH consistently. And I did not drive to conserve fuel.

5 Years Regular car costs $12166 - Hybrid is $6441 - Savings $5725

10 Years Regular car costs $24333 - Hybrid is $12882 - Savins $11450

So If I paid cash for either vehicle then after about 6 years I would break even to loose all the fun and save the money from gasoline.

Yet, many people want to deel good and buy a Hybrid and they get to pay in the monthly versus the weekly fill up. If you finance the cost of the car it only gets worse.

Just make an educated purchase is all I ask. Now, some Hybrids can deliver a better acceleration, and performance in a small vehicle. This is nice to see, but research and investigate and understand what you are buying.

******************

Now to the cost of fuel, this is outrageous. I agree with Tgace that this is just a way to get more money out of peopl and to also get the Fuel costs here in the US in line with the rest of the world, only elsewhere it is all tax and that tax is used for the betterment of the members of that country.

:soapbox:

That's a great post. I've read it a couple of times. If you trade in your vehicle every five or six years anyway, you are not saving a dime (might save a little bit of the environment though) on straight combustion vs. hybrid.

I want to find out a little more on what you were saying about the Japanese fudging the mpg tests... I'll see what I can find out online, but I'd like to hear your explanation of what rigging the test involves.

Thanks Rich. Great post.

 

[ave_turuta]

Can the automotive industry not evolve as well? It is quite possible that progress has been stalled simply for the sake of corporate profit.

Of course. This is, imho, the most important reason stalling change. For goodness sakes, WE SEND SHIPS TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we can't come up with a better alternative to oil consumption???? ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rich Parsons]

But very few of the reasons given by analysts are given as a supply problem. I remember back in the 70's waiting in line on the "even/odd" day cycles to get gas. This isnt about scarcity, its about money.

Money? No it could not be about the fact that people see a chance to raise the price a little and see what happens? OH great there is a war, and there is the refinery issue that happens each spring and fall, as they change their mixture for winter of summer fuels. It could have nothing to do with something like this.

Supply and demand is the simple way to look at capitalism, and the theory is that if a price is too high the market will not support it and then you will have a readjustment.

The problem is that all the local companies get their gas from a local supply area, and that local supply can raise their price, and now all the local gas stations have to raise their price to continue making a few cents on the gallon. The gas station owners are nto the ones making the lion share here, it is the middle man, and the companies that quietly set prices and they agree that they will not screw the other. Hence our Monopoly laws, and even the laws about banking in the USA and also train laws. Most of our trains are set up and controlled by federal regulation to the point that they cannot make a profit. There really is only one run of train rail that is profitable and that is the east coast run from NY to Boston.

So if you believe that supply and demand controls this market, then you need to look at the bigger picture and understand how they distribute the fuel to better manage the costs of distribution across the country.

:soapbox:

 

[Tgace]

Yep Rich. Its been going around for a while that the "US has the cheapest gas...they are paying X here and X there"...its like the oil industry was laying the groundwork for a profit increase for a long time. The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way.

 

[Rich Parsons]

With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay).

Peace,
A.T.

What legislation are you talking about?

Recently Truck CAFE (* Corporate Average Fuel Economy *) has increased. I believe this is done by the NHTSB, where the cars are controlled by Congress.

I know that Congress and the NHTSB are looking into getting vehicles like the PT Cruiser and the new HHR and the Toyota Matrix, and, other small 'cars' that have folding seats that give more cargo space then seating space, which makes it a truck, from being called trucks.

What specific legislation promotes the SUV?

I am serious about finding out, so I can call my congressperson and senator to let them know I am not happy about this.

As to Hyrbids, the Toyota and Honda approach of quoting a better 0 to 60 time, is what will get the hybrids moving. By having four electric motors that can ontrol torque to each wheel independantly this gives you a better controlled launch to accelerate.

Once the coast of Hybrids drops so that it pays for itself, in the life of the car, then it will also take off.

Car companies want hyrbids, because with them they get emissions credits, they get a better CAFE number, which does allow them to sell thsoe SUV's as well, but you have to balance the mix. So Hybrids are here to stay and will only get better, it will just take time.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Yep Rich. Its been going around for a while that the "US has the cheapest gas...they are paying X here and X there"...its like the oil industry was laying the groundwork for a profit increase for a long time. The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way.

Tom the average person pays an extra 5 to 10 USD at the pump a week, and this means a couple less packs of cigarettes or beers at the bar, or a couple less bag of chips for home. So, people just do not put the money somewhere else. There are those I know who even drop their savings, or 401K contributions to continue living and consuming the way they want to today.

So, yes, until we go on strike and not drive, or we stop buying large cars, people will not listen. For when this happens then the tourism and car companies will lobby for somethign to assist these areas of commerce.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Actually, a good and even more terrifying example is China. Some of my colleagues are Chinese, and I have exchanged views with them on this particular topic. It appears that individual car usage in China is presently skyrocketing in urban areas, with highways being built at lightning speed and agricultural lands being destroyed very rapidly.

That is very disturbing. I was aware that China will become our largest petroleum consumption competitor. Considering the sizeable population of China, that is somewhat worrisome (if only from an environmental point of view; not pondering the military implications).

I am a person who thinks that resource consumption is a matter that needs to be addressed in global terms, and unfortunately the global trend is not towards less consumption, but more...

I didn't use to consider anything on a global scale. It has become necessary to do so. We are sliding down a slippery slope. Recovering from the fall may not even be possible, so all we can do is try to slow and stop our descent.

One side comment: I do not think, nor would I ever argue, that having or using a car is irresponsible. As with everything else, using a car in a repsonsible manner cannot be a bad thing.

Ah, a simple misunderstanding on my part. No harm done.

I still think that the use of the car in our culture (and I mean the US) is extremely irresponsible, and urban sprawl is certainly not contributing to making it any better.

I am not certain what the solution to this problem is. I can't see a realistic resolution other than altering our technology base (nearly impossible).

i don't understand how environmentla destruction and all its associated costs (worse health conditions for the population, increase in stress and commute times, etc. etc.) can be considered "development."

It is a shame when money becomes the sole motivating factor in any decision making process.

With regards to hybrids: as long as Congress keeps passing legislation that encourages the use of mamouth-like cars such as SUVs, don't even dream of hybrids taking off. In any event: why do so many people buy SUVs anyway??? I mean, it's still a box with four wheels!!!!!! (only it tells everyone you either have a load of cash, or have a huge debt to repay).

To me, a car is a car. As long as my vehicle can safely transport me to my destination I don't care whether the vehicle is large or small. SUV's are certainly not necessary; however, it is hard to limit free choice in this society, even when the choice may be unnecessarily destructive when operated using the current technology.

Thanks again.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Of course. This is, imho, the most important reason stalling change. For goodness sakes, WE SEND SHIPS TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO MARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and we can't come up with a better alternative to oil consumption???? ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yeah, that's almost verbatim what I was thinking!

 

[KenpoEMT]

...The bottom line though is, even though we all gripe about the cost of gas, most of us can in fact afford it and very few of us seem to be altering our consumption habits in any way.

The cold, hard truth.

 

[ave_turuta]

I am specifically referring to the tax breaks that Congress allowed for SUV models. I don't know if this is the case this particular year, but the fact of the matter is SUV owners get tax breaks for purchasing anti-environmental vehicles...

Peace,
A.T.

 

[KenpoEMT]

suv tax loop hole

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=1280

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp

http://environment.about.com/cs/globalwarming/a/SUVloophole.htm

 

[KenpoEMT]

This one is pretty decent:

http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm

closing the loophole

 

[Ping898]

Some interesting reading.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=AmaROX6.SAO7vp9522mkiiUPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg

CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.
Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I am specifically referring to the tax breaks that Congress allowed for SUV models. I don't know if this is the case this particular year, but the fact of the matter is SUV owners get tax breaks for purchasing anti-environmental vehicles...

Peace,
A.T.

If you mean the Small businesses referenced below, that is bad, if you mean everyone, then I would still like to see a link to what you are talking about.

 

[Rich Parsons]

suv tax loop hole

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=1280

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/auto/car-guide-2004/tax-SUVs1.asp

http://environment.about.com/cs/globalwarming/a/SUVloophole.htm

This one is pretty decent:

http://www.taxpayer.net/TCS/whitepapers/SUVtaxbreak.htm

closing the loophole

Thanks for the links, it looks like it was out there, and congress is trying to make it better as they should