Non-martial training in martial arts

[Gerry Seymour]

in past decades maybe,but its a) counter productive as above and b) would be considered as bullying in the century. Arguing that people used to do bad things to children in the past doesn't really support your point to well

I'm pretty sure this practice is still common. I know of no parent who'd think their kid was being bullied for having to run a lap or two because they were late to practice. As for it being counter-productive, there are two sides to that. There's definitely a counter-productive element, but there's a productive one, as well. And whether it's productive or not isn't really relevant to this point. You've already said sports aren't cults, yet coaches resort to many of the same practices as MA instructors. At worst (if we go with your assertion that this is not common practice in sports now), MA instructors are behind the times.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

he knew it was me, he couldn't catch me doing it,
he starts bullying me by taking a quarter hours pay of me if i was one minute late, or more commonly an hours pay if i was half an hour late. As nobody did anything at all for the first hour, this was just a petty vindictive rule that was of no benefit to the company, further it removed my good will to stay late with out pay if required, so it harmed the company.

he was universal llu unpopular even his boss hated him, which is how i got away with so much, when he left, ll got back o normal, i tuned up when i felt like it, and did all the work that the others wouldn't do as it was difficult/ dirty. An was the new foremans and blue eyed boy, so much so that the other wouldn't talk to me
I'm trying to remember which was the best trick,???? When i cut one of the selves of his coat or when i put engine oil in his boots , there are so many

Ah. You just didn't like the rules. And rather than either complying (you chose to work there, after all) or finding other work, you decided to bully the guy responsible for upholding rules.

Very mature.

 

[jobo]

I'm pretty sure this practice is still common. I know of no parent who'd think their kid was being bullied for having to run a lap or two because they were late to practice. As for it being counter-productive, there are two sides to that. There's definitely a counter-productive element, but there's a productive one, as well. And whether it's productive or not isn't really relevant to this point. You've already said sports aren't cults, yet coaches resort to many of the same practices as MA instructors. At worst (if we go with your assertion that this is not common practice in sports now), MA instructors are behind the times.

if your putting it forward as evidence that its a societal norm, then you need to evidence that it is indeed a societal norm,

physical punishment by an organisation is always wrong, its much the reason they don't punish people by flogging any more, its most certainly a breach of the Childs human rights, maybe its an American thing? I would most certainly consider it bullying both on a physical and mental level, and would be having a word with the person involved, to see if they would like to be physical punished

our gym teacher who i mention earlier, who like to punish people by making them run round a muddy field in the freezing cold, had a change of heart, when someone's elder brother turn up and gave him a kicking. Seems its wasn't such a good idea after all

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if your putting it forward as evidence that its a societal norm, then you need to evidence that it is indeed a societal norm,

physical punishment by an organisation is always wrong, its much the reason they don't punish people by flogging any more, its most certainly a breach of the Childs human rights, maybe its an American thing? I would most certainly consider it bullying both on a physical and mental level, and would be having a word with the person involved, to see if they would like to be physical punished

our gym teacher who i mention earlier, who like to punish people by making them run round a muddy field in the freezing cold, had a change of heart, when someone's elder brother turn up and gave him a kicking. Seems its wasn't such a good idea after all

That someone got a beating doesn't determine whether a practice is a good idea or not. And I addressed the idea of norms in my prior post, but you ignored that point, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Oddly, what you consider bullying doesn't include your own bullying behavior.

 

[jobo]

That someone got a beating doesn't determine whether a practice is a good idea or not. And I addressed the idea of norms in my prior post, but you ignored that point, because it doesn't fit your narrative. Oddly, what you consider bullying doesn't include your own bullying behavior.

I'm not a) a child and b) not an organisation, and c ) my retaliation against some one who had far more power than I was not physical punishment,

i used to put drawing pins in my dads boots, as well, that was as much as i could manage till i was 17, and then strangely enough his physical bullying stopped as well after a punch on the nose.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a) a child and b) not an organisation, and c ) my retaliation against some one who had far more power than I was not physical punishment,

i used to put drawing pins in my dads boots, as well, that was as much as i could manage till i was 17, and then strangely enough his physical bullying stopped as well after a punch on the nose.

Those are two different things. You're an adult now, and you still resort to bullying people when you don't like their rules. Your attitude toward the visiting instructor was much the same.

 

[jobo]

Those are two different things. You're an adult now, and you still resort to bullying people when you don't like their rules. Your attitude toward the visiting instructor was much the same.

she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,

I understand that you don't see the distinction.

 

[JR 137]

she was attempting to bully me,i just refused to allow that to happen, that of course caused her some phycological distress, but that what happens when people who think they have aurthority to make you punish yourself find they haven't, even more so if you laugh at them,

Curiosity question... is there anyone you don’t have these similar issues with? It seems like you need to “straighten out “ the world.

You seem to take issue with people who “physically punish” those who don’t comply, yet there’s no shortage of examples of you physically punishing those who don’t follow your rules.

 

[jobo]

Curiosity question... is there anyone you don’t have these similar issues with? It seems like you need to “straighten out “ the world.

You seem to take issue with people who “physically punish” those who don’t comply, yet there’s no shortage of examples of you physically punishing those who don’t follow your rules.

i don't have, nor seek to impose rules on others, with the exception of i react badly to people who try and bully me or mine, or people in general,

i also have a problem with petty rules that serve no particular purpose, in which case i generally choose it ignore it, this has brought me into occasional conflict with employers, etc. I generaly win these and they come to accept that they need two sets of rules, one for me and one for everyone else. This is mostly because. I'm extremely good at what i do and can walk out of the door and get another job at any time i choose

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i don't have, nor seek to impose rules on others, with the exception of i react badly to people who try and bully me or mine, or people in general,

i also have a problem with petty rules that serve no particular purpose, in which case i generally choose it ignore it, this has brought me into occasional conflict with employers, etc. I generaly win these and they come to accept that they need two sets of rules, one for me and one for everyone else. This is mostly because. I'm extremely good at what i do and can walk out of the door and get another job at any time i choose

And you don't care about the impact you have on the organization long-term. Don't forget that part of the situation.

 

[jobo]

And you don't care about the impact you have on the organization long-term. Don't forget that part of the situation.

well most organisations benefit from having less pointless rules, just as they do by treating adults as adults, I'm an agent of change or possibly a catalyst

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well most organisations benefit from having less pointless rules, just as they do by treating adults as adults, I'm an agent of change or possibly a catalyst

Except you really don't care about changing the rules - just so long as you don't have to comply. And often there's a reason why the rule is necessary to the organization that's not obvious unless you consider the implication if it goes away. But your attitude is clear on that.

 

[jobo]

Except you really don't care about changing the rules - just so long as you don't have to comply. And often there's a reason why the rule is necessary to the organization that's not obvious unless you consider the implication if it goes away. But your attitude is clear on that.

I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.

but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.

 

[jobo]

I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.

but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.

here is a shortened version of a,discussion i had at one place of work

them,,,, you can't park there

me, why not

them coz there is a sign

why is there a sign

to tell you , you can't park there

why can't i park there

coz there is a,sign

when the only justification for a rule is there is a,sign, and the only justification for a,sign is there is a rule.
then nether the sign nor the rule should exist

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm a catalyst, catalysts don't care, that's not there job.

but generaly speaking, all rules should be challenged, if they can't be justified, then they have no justification to exist.

No, you're not a catalyst. You're a self-serving bully.

See, I'm one of the guys who goes out and actually challenges rules. I teach managers to challenge every rule, because irrational rules make work harder to do (and their job is to make it easier to do). But I teach them how to do it rationally, rather than based on personal desire. You don't care about the organization - you've made that clear in past posts and in this thread.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

here is a shortened version of a,discussion i had at one place of work

them,,,, you can't park there

me, why not

them coz there is a sign

why is there a sign

to tell you , you can't park there

why can't i park there

coz there is a,sign

when the only justification for a rule is there is a,sign, and the only justification for a,sign is there is a rule.
then nether the sign nor the rule should exist

The problem isn't the rule. The problem is that they don't know the reason for the rule. And neither do you. Until someone figures out the reason - or establishes (beyond this bit of dialog) that there's not one - simply ignoring the rule is not a good idea.

 

[jobo]

No, you're not a catalyst. You're a self-serving bully.

See, I'm one of the guys who goes out and actually challenges rules. I teach managers to challenge every rule, because irrational rules make work harder to do (and their job is to make it easier to do). But I teach them how to do it rationally, rather than based on personal desire. You don't care about the organization - you've made that clear in past posts and in this thread.

the two arnt mutually exclusive,at least not under your defintion of catalyst

 

[jobo]

The problem isn't the rule. The problem is that they don't know the reason for the rule. And neither do you. Until someone figures out the reason - or establishes (beyond this bit of dialog) that there's not one - simply ignoring the rule is not a good idea.

so all rules, no matter how silly should be followed, until someone comes up with a reason, that would mean if they never come up with a reason, you would have to follow a silly rule for ever.

surely the rule should be with drawn until such time a reason for its existence is discovered

 

[Gerry Seymour]

so all rules, no matter how silly should be followed, until someone comes up with a reason, that would mean if they never come up with a reason, you would have to follow a silly rule for ever.

surely the rule should be with drawn until such time a reason for its existence is discovered

See, you're assuming the rule is silly, without finding out why it exists. Some of the silliest rules are compliance issues. They're verifiably silly, but failing to comply can cost the organization a fair bit of money. Again, you not knowing and disregarding it shows you don't care about the organization - just about your own snowflake ability to not have to bend to rules you don't like.

As I said above, the issue is that they don't know the reason for the rule. Their job is to find out why the rule exists, and if there's not a good reason, to work to get it changed (or just change it or override it, if that's within their authority).