no kata

[MJS]

IMHO opinion you are right on all your points, Boxers have a tendency to fire punchs with thier hands partially open (helps keep punchs snappy). If you make a practice the correct fist formations can help (esp the 'goju" fist form). Basicaaly there are a ton of ways to conditipon the fist, the problem with the makiwara is that you are crunching the bone. In time you will have problems. If you do decide to try makiwara keepp it light going more more the abrasion then straight impact
Todd

Thank you for the reply! I was surfing the web for different ways to condition the hands and came across some iron palm methods. They were talking about starting out with soft items and then gradually working up to something harder. IMO, a makiwara is not a soft target to hit. In addition, I would also be concerned about the long-term effects of hitting things with the hands.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Something that I copied from the net.

Introduction
I had been a student at Lam Kwoon for about six months and one day was practicing Hung Gar's Gung Gee Fook Fu (Tempting the Tiger) form when Sifu came up to me to give me a lesson. This lesson was different, though, because instead of making corrections to my movements, he had me stop and show him my hands. Before I came to study with Sifu Lam, I had studied an Okinawan form of Karate. In this system we were taught to do our hand training by punching a makararwa, which is a flexible board with a rope tied around it. He looked at my hands, which were all bruised and swollen from my last practice, and shook his head. "If you keep this up, by the time that you are fifty you will not be able to use your hands," he said. Of course, this really concerned me, particularly since I play the guitar. I asked him what I should do. He gave me a bottle of Dit Da Jow, showed me how to apply it and told me that when my hands heal, we would talk again. In about a month's time, Sifu then introduced me to Chinese Iron Palm.

A Little of the History
Throughout the history of Chinese martial arts, the practice of hardening the body, hands and feet has been an integral part of basic training. Kung Fu practitioners needed some way to improve their power, their ability to withstand blows, and their ability to inflict great damage on their opponents, all without causing any damage to themselves. Necessity is the mother of invention, and this is why "Iron" training evolved.

Until the early part of this century, practitioners of Iron Palm were not as eager to show off their skill as today's Iron Palm practitioners are. Their life depended on their skill and they did not want to reveal their "secret weapon." The premier reason why public Iron Palm demonstrations are common today can be traced back to the Northern Shaolin Grand Teacher Ku Yu Cheong, one of the most famous Kung Fu masters of the first half of the Twentieth Century.

In China prior to World War II, martial arts were neither as important nor as popular as they once were and an effort was being made by the Chinese government to revive their popularity. The government sought to rid themselves of the "sick man of Asia" stigma by recruiting well know martial arts teachers and deploying them throughout the country to promote and teach their arts for health and fitness. After moving to Guangzhou to teach, Ku Yu Cheong chose to advance the Northern Shaolin system by taking part in demonstrations showcasing the differences between the Chinese martial styles. To prove himself and gain students, he gave many performances, most of which included demonstrations of his Iron Body and Iron Palm techniques. One of the most famous pictures of Ku Yu Cheung that survives today shows him breaking a stack of 10 bricks without any spacers between the bricks.

While in Guangzhou, Ku Yu Cheong taught many students. One of his top students was Yen Shang Wo. Yen Shang Wo moved to Hong Kong to teach the Northern Shaolin system along with Iron Body and Iron Palm. From Hong Kong, the art migrated to North America via Yen Shang Wo's students, one being Sifu Wing Lam.

Iron Palm Equipment
When I began my Iron Palm training I had to make my own training bags because Sifu did not yet sell any Iron Palm training equipment. The student starts off with a beginner's bag made of thin canvas material that is approximately 10 x 10 inches in size and filled with Chinese mung beans. My wife made me an empty bag and I went off to the oriental food market to purchase the beans. I kept asking for "monk" beans so they had not idea what I was talking about. After relating this to Sifu, at the next class he provided me with all the mung beans I needed for my bag. When it was time to change to the intermediate bag my wife again made me another bag and I purchased the required gravel from pet store. The intermediate bag is the same size but is filled with gravel that is approximately 1/4 inch in size. From there the student moves on to the advanced bag, again the same size but filled with 1/4 inch iron or steel ball bearings. Buying the ball bearings was the biggest challenge for me. I finally found some being sold as ammunition for slingshots in a sporting goods store. I bought all they had and asked the manager to order more. He must have thought I was crazy when I told him what I wanted them for. Because you want them to rust, the ball bearings have to be iron or steel and not lead, stainless steel or chromed steel. Over time and with use, the rust formed on the balls will get absorbed into the hands of the practitioner, giving them a heavy, iron-like quality.

The Four Types of Strikes
Iron Palm practice consists of striking the training bag four times with one hand, using four different strikes. The same strikes are then repeated with the other hand. The body is held in a stable stance, most commonly a bow stance or a horse stance, and is externally independent from the striking motion. Only the arm is used to "whip" the hand down onto the bag.

The first of the strikes is the Palm (zhang) strike, an internal strike in which the student whips his palm down onto the bag. The hand is held with the fingers straight out and the thumb slightly bent and held close to the index finger. The palm of the hand should be slightly concave so that when contact with the bag is made there is a small space between the bag and the hand. The second strike, also an internal strike, is done with the back of the hand (zhang bei-back of hand). The hand is raised and held in the same manner as in the first strike, but contact with the bag is made with the back of the hand. The third strike is made with the side of the hand (pi) and is similar to the Karate chop. This is an external strike in that much more muscle is used. As the hand is approaching the bag, the wrist joint is used to snap the side of the hand down onto the bag. The last strike is the Tiger claw (hu zhua) strike. This strike is an external strike for the sole purpose of conditioning the tips of the fingers and building the strength of the hand.

Training Practices
The length of time that a student spends on the first two bags is three to six months each. Once the student reaches the advanced bag, they will stay with it for the rest of the time he trains. When you start with a new bag, start training with short sessions of five to ten minutes gradually working up to 30 to 45 minutes a day. At the beginning of each practice session, the student should warm up first with a beginning and then an intermediate bag before going to the advanced bag.

After every training session the student should rub his hands with Dit Da Jow, a Chinese herbal solution used to toughen the skin, dissipate any bruising, and neutralize any effects of the iron's poisonous rust. The student rubs the Dit Da Jow into their hands for fifteen to twenty minutes after each training session. The medicine is rubbed on one hand by the other in a circular motion for about five minutes. The student then rubs the hand with a pushing motion toward the arm. This is done to ensure the circulation of blood in the hand is moved back toward the heart.

Conclusion
At this point, you might be asking yourself "Why would I want to spend 45 minutes everyday beating my hands against a bag filled with steel balls?" This is a good question and I can only speak for myself. There are many reasons why I practice Iron Palm. I have always believed that you need some kind of hand conditioning so that you will not break your hands in a real physical encounter. In the beginning, this was the paramount reason why I trained Iron Palm, but over the years, it has become secondary. I also enjoy the meditative aspects of training--and the concentration and dedication required to train everyday gives me great satisfaction. But still this is not what drives be. During a good training session, when I can feel the "glove of Chi" around my hand, I sense a feeling of energy being thrown from my hand as it strikes the bag. It is like a yoyo going down and then up. I become aware of the distance that the energy travels and I start to play with it, trying to control it. It is a feeling in my hands that I have not obtained from anything else until it started to study Baguazhang. This is why I train.

If practiced correctly, Iron Palm can become a very rewarding part of any Kung Fu practitioner's training system. But I must stress that it should be done correctly. If not, if the timetable is rushed or if there is not enough time for any injuries to heal, then permanent damage may result. So be careful! For myself, the knuckles on my right hand are larger than those on the left because of my previous makararwa training. After 18 years of practicing Iron Palm, my hands look and function normally and I still play the guitar as well or better as I ever did. This is one of the hallmarks of this method of Iron Palm training--the hands are not disfigured at all. It should be noted at this point that this article has been presented as general information on the subject. If the reader chooses to add Iron Palm to their training, they should do so under the instruction of a qualified teacher, though seminars, and/or training tapes, and always follow the instruction to the letter

 

[The Kai]

I do have the bad of Mung beans which I was told give of a vapor when you hit it that helps keep your hands pliable. I have not taken it any further (yet)

Todd

 

[harleyt26]

There are different types of makiwara for different types of training.We use makiwara for our weapons training as well.A good makiwara is not just a block of wood.A good makiwara will be built with a tapered board in a fashon so that it will flex on impact,that flex is a major training aid.The flex teaches you to keep pushing on impact as well as the flex teaches proper alignment of the entire body starting at the floor and stance then hip alignment with the back and shoulders then the elbow and wrist.If you do not have proper alignment you will not have the maximum power transmitted to the target,as well as injury to yourself is inevitable.You are correct at the beginning you should not be hitting the makiwara with full power. You can not get these same results from moving targets such as focus pads and heavy bags,that is a different type of training that does have its purpose also.I am not comparing karate training to boxing or sport karate,I am talking about one punch one kill.

 

[MJS]

There are different types of makiwara for different types of training.We use makiwara for our weapons training as well.A good makiwara is not just a block of wood.A good makiwara will be built with a tapered board in a fashon so that it will flex on impact,that flex is a major training aid.The flex teaches you to keep pushing on impact as well as the flex teaches proper alignment of the entire body starting at the floor and stance then hip alignment with the back and shoulders then the elbow and wrist.If you do not have proper alignment you will not have the maximum power transmitted to the target,as well as injury to yourself is inevitable.You are correct at the beginning you should not be hitting the makiwara with full power. You can not get these same results from moving targets such as focus pads and heavy bags,that is a different type of training that does have its purpose also.

I agree that having the proper alignment is important due to the fact that an injury can occur. Learning to throw proper punches can be attained through the use of focus pads and a heavy bag. A person can hold the pads and bag with no movement and the punches can be thrown. However, it is important to have movement, as the student will not be hitting a stationary target in a fight.

I am not comparing karate training to boxing or sport karate,I am talking about one punch one kill.

I would not rely on the one punch one kill mentality.

Mike

 

[Kenpodoc]

I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.

I know that everyone is horrified by your desire for no Kata. To each his own. If I were you I'd look into Systema. I don't know of any schools in Buffalo but Toronto isn't very far and Systema will give you a very Western approach to Martial Arts. I still love doing American Kenpo but my exposure to Systema has made me see it very differently.

Jeff

 

[Kenpodoc]

I agree that having the proper alignment is important due to the fact that an injury can occur. Learning to throw proper punches can be attained through the use of focus pads and a heavy bag. A person can hold the pads and bag with no movement and the punches can be thrown. However, it is important to have movement, as the student will not be hitting a stationary target in a fight.



I would not rely on the one punch one kill mentality.

Mike

Agreed! Focus pads also have the benefit that if you plan to like past 40 you are less likely to have crippling arthritis from the collective trauma of years of Makiwari board work.

Jeff

 

[The Kai]

Now this is just my opinion, but I think hard core makiwara work is not real appliciable to the art of kenpo. pads, bags, or anything that brings that snappy type of strikes would be a tad more beneficial

Todd

 

[MJS]

Now this is just my opinion, but I think hard core makiwara work is not real appliciable to the art of kenpo. pads, bags, or anything that brings that snappy type of strikes would be a tad more beneficial

Todd

Yes, there certainly are arts that have snappy kicks. Like everything, even those have their time and place. In my Arnis class, my instructor also rounds out the class with punching, kicking, throwing, and grappling. Kenpo is my base art, but as far as the punching and kicking goes, I now tend to lean more towards Thai style kicking and boxing style punching with all of the footwork that goes along with it.

As for what to hit, how hard to hit, etc. I look at it like this. A beginner needs to get the basics down first, before striking anything! If they are not using proper form throwing punches and kicks in the air, whats gonna happen when they hit a target?? Most likely, an injury!!! Any time any sort of conditioning takes place, it needs to be done slowly.

Mike

 

[chinto01]

While in Okinawa this summer the subject of makiwara training came up with the Grandmaster as he was a student of Choki Motobu at one point. Motobu Sensei would have marathon makiwara training as Sensei told us but not what we thought. He told us that Motobu would encourage a beginner to hit the makiwara easily until he developed form and a conditioning to the knuckles. The more advanced a student got the harder he encouraged the student to strike but Motobu Sensei never encouraged full power only 60% power at the maximum. Sensei told us several times about how he himself had broken his hand and bloodied his knuckles on several occassions.

 

[loki09789]

I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.

What plaza/intersection/address in Lancaster is this school at? I am from the Buffalo area and may know it.

 

[MJS]

While in Okinawa this summer the subject of makiwara training came up with the Grandmaster as he was a student of Choki Motobu at one point. Motobu Sensei would have marathon makiwara training as Sensei told us but not what we thought. He told us that Motobu would encourage a beginner to hit the makiwara easily until he developed form and a conditioning to the knuckles. The more advanced a student got the harder he encouraged the student to strike but Motobu Sensei never encouraged full power only 60% power at the maximum. Sensei told us several times about how he himself had broken his hand and bloodied his knuckles on several occassions.

Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first? Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer. What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press. Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first? Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer. What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press. Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.

Mike

The current emphasis on knuckle rocks in Okinawan arts is not historical or an 'ancient' practice. Think about it, if you are a peasant type and have these huge knobs on your first and second knuckles that are obvious to the local Samurai/occupation, it is like the pack strap marks that the American troops used in part to ID VC and NVA in hiding - it makes you stand out.

There are plenty of toughening practices that are more progressive and less scarring over time.

It has turned into a 'gut check' practice to weed out the non hackers in the modern practices.

 

[harleyt26]

When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot? Thomas Hodges

 

[MJS]

When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.

Ahh..thanks for the clarification. When first reading this, nothing was mentioned about a soft target, such as the leather pads, rags, etc. I guess we can say that we agree on that!

And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot? Thomas Hodges

Well, seeing as how this thread already went off topic, why not, in the tradition of things, keep it off track! I'd be interested in hearing the definition of one shot one kill.

As for the above comment regarding those shots...it still appears to me that its saying the exact same thing. If we did only get one shot, are we not trying to take them out with that one shot? Hence...one shot, one kill.

Mike

 

[harleyt26]

If me or mine are being attacked I certainly would not be trying to score points.Each technique I would throw would be in the intent of one punch one kill,if it takes more than one each one would be delivered with that same intent.

 

[chinto01]

Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first? Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer. What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press. Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.

Mike

Please do not think that I was advocating people just going out and pounding away at a makiwara. This does however happen in some cases. I was just relating a story to people in hope that they may appreciate it that was all.

 

[MJS]

If me or mine are being attacked I certainly would not be trying to score points.Each technique I would throw would be in the intent of one punch one kill,if it takes more than one each one would be delivered with that same intent.

Agreed! :asian:

By the way, it appears that you do train in a TMA. I'd be interested in hearing about what art you do, rank, etc.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot? Thomas Hodges

The other thing to consider is the springiness of Makiwara. There is a timing, reactionary, tempo and rhythmn element to using it well. Much like a speed back (but much less dynamic in most cases) or a double ended bag.

 

[loki09789]

I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.

I knew this sounded really familiar! It is the location that I sublet for my program. There are a few other schools in the area on Transit that have similar locales and similar sounding names so I wanted to make sure. Thanks for the PM Chiro.

Yeah, the guy runs a user friendly program that maintains the spirit of traditions but applies English terms so that the context/meanings of the names are more recognizable (which can speed up learning in some cases).

I don't know much about the influencial or origination arts other than Kenpo but they are a good group that work well together.

As far as other schools in the area....what are you looking for specifically? Are you looking for self defense focus, exercise, cultural experience.....? There are TONS of TKD schools in the area (with Kata though) and other programs without kata as well.