no kata

[chiro4]

I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.

 

[chinto01]

Chiro04 I was just wondering why you prefer no kata.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Chiro04 I was just wondering why you prefer no kata.

Its been my observation from the tough guys in my dojo who just want to learn to throw and either win a street fight or win a trophy, that it is just a matter of good old fashion American pragmatism. Just learn what works. The absence of kata hurts the judo player, and I'm sure it doesn't help the karateka either.

 

[Shade Silverwing]

The absence of kata hurts the judo player, and I'm sure it doesn't help the karateka either.

Yep. My own instructor doesn't like kata, but she teaches it anyway.

 

[RRouuselot]

Yep. My own instructor doesn't like kata, but she teaches it anyway.

People that don't like/trash talk kata don't know what kata really is........

go here and read post #55
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=276846#post276846

 

[Andrew Green]

Lots of schools don't do kata. Just keep looking

 

[Shade Silverwing]

People that don't like/trash talk kata don't know what kata really is........

go here and read post #55
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=276846#post276846

She doesn't talk trash about kata. She's just not very good at it.

 

[chinto01]

Kata in my opinion is the essence of karate.

 

[chinto01]

The essence of karate is kata. With out kata the moves you are doing are just kicks and punches.

" to study the ways of the fish, one must look into the water; to study the ways of karate one must look into the kata."

This is a quote from a book I am currently reading. I think it makes alot of sense. Think on it for a while!!

 

[RRouuselot]

Basically kata can be compared to reading a language, much like Japanese. Kata is the written part of the “language” of Karate. Sometimes Japanese kanji can be difficult to understand and may look odd but the have meaning none the less. For example the kanji for hand (te) is rather simple but can be combined with various other kanji to make more words…..this is true for technique found in kata. Just as with any language one must not only be able to speak ( application) but must also be able to read (kata). In order to get the full benefit from a language you need to know both the spoken and written word…. this is true of Martial Arts as well. With skills in reading and writing one can further investigate and go much deeper in the language than one who is illiterate. Just as one who knows how to “read” kata can go further and deeper into training. Kata are the “reference manuals”, “dictionaries”, and “thesauruses” for martial arts. Those who don’t value their worth don’t know how to “read” them…..in the same way that someone might not be able to read Russian therefore a book in Russian wouldn’t be of much value to them until they learned how to read in Russian.

 

[Andrew Green]

Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.

Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate

 

[Sei-i]

I found a school that I like.

Gut!

It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling.

Just wonder... how they all work together?... ;-)

I don't mean techniques. I mean body mechanics.

It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language.

Why kata for kickboxing???

And judo, by the way, has it own katas as well... ;-)

 

[Drac]

Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.

Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate

Yea, What he said....

 

[Ippon Ken]

Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.

Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate

Yeah, most karate (and MAs in general suck), even the MMAs variety. That's because all the hard work and hard sparring in the world will not necessarily make you a real "hard rock", like the kids say (well the cool ones at least). Additionally, fighting for the sake of fighting is for dolts. Ring sport or most MAs are for sadistic, regimented pain lovers, who have something to prove. Acclimation and sado-masochism are two different animals. Most people tend to get that aspect of hard training twisted.

It seems that a gym which teaches any karate ryu, Isshin or otherwise, would understand that without kata you're teaching variations of kickboxing. That's it. No "kara" and no "te". No "to" or no "de". It's pseudo jutsu, without the art aspect of the term "jutsu". It's crap, plain and simple. A way to take that which makes us human, our brain, and pummel it before the bad guys do. It's an affront to one's humanity.

Hey, so you're right. It is a good thing that most will never, ever, ever know what real karate is, or the depth of training real karate involves. They will kick their own asses more than any bad guy will. That's the truth. So dowahtchalike, it ain't affecting me adversely or positively one bit.

Kata, kata, kata.

Pax Romans....

 

[harleyt26]

I can understand that the study of traditional kata can be very difficult,it is supposed to be.Some of the old Okinawan masters spent their entire lives studying three or four kata.The advanced study of kata will involve several possible applications of assorted technique for each attack(series of moves in a kata),to not train for each possible application is to have a very small arsenal of knowlege to defend yourself.Without kata all you have are punches and kicks.Without kata how can you train sweeps ,throws ,foot catches and all the other possible defences that can be learned from the lifelong studies of our predecesors?Now lets talk about these schools that do not teach kata,I would venture to guess they do not teach makiwara use also.A dojo without a makiwara is a dance school.Those punches and kicks unless trained properly with makiwara will not have the power needed to acheive the desired outcome as well as likely injury to your own wrist ,elbow ,ankle or knee.The proper way to train makiwara can be found in kata,the footwork and body positioning are of utmost importance.But I guess the dance dojo need students too.Whatever you train in train hard.

 

[MJS]

I've been doing kata for quite a while, but I have to disagree with a few things.

I can understand that the study of traditional kata can be very difficult,it is supposed to be.Some of the old Okinawan masters spent their entire lives studying three or four kata.The advanced study of kata will involve several possible applications of assorted technique for each attack(series of moves in a kata),to not train for each possible application is to have a very small arsenal of knowlege to defend yourself.

This I agree with. The sad thing is that there are some instructors out there that do not know or understand the applications of the moves themselves, therefore making it harder to teach the meaning to their students. I always refer back to Dillman when talking about this. He is someone that can give many applications to forms.

Without kata how can you train sweeps ,throws ,foot catches and all the other possible defences that can be learned from the lifelong studies of our predecesors?

There are arts out there that do not do kata but still train those moves.

Without kata all you have are punches and kicks.

True, but one can still be effective with those tools.

Now lets talk about these schools that do not teach kata,I would venture to guess they do not teach makiwara use also.A dojo without a makiwara is a dance school.

Every school is different. Do boxing schools have makiwara?

Those punches and kicks unless trained properly with makiwara will not have the power needed to acheive the desired outcome as well as likely injury to your own wrist ,elbow ,ankle or knee.

Again, I go back to boxing. Does Tyson, or any other boxer out there hit one?

Mike

 

[ppko]

Makiwara training from my understanding is not to punch harder anyways, it is so that you can strangthen points (knuckles, fingers, etc.)to attack vulnerable areas:asian:

 

[The Kai]

Boxers also train with gloves on and wrap on thier hands. Years ago (when he all still thought there was nobility to the Mike Tyson saga), Tyson got into a street fight and broke his hand on the first punch!

Todd

 

[MJS]

Boxers also train with gloves on and wrap on thier hands. Years ago (when he all still thought there was nobility to the Mike Tyson saga), Tyson got into a street fight and broke his hand on the first punch!

Todd

Point taken and I do remember that he did break his hand. Now, I don't hit a makiwara, so maybe you can answer this question for me. First, there are other methods of hand conditioning correct? I find it odd that the poster made it seem as if that is the only way of conditioning the hands. Second, I would think that proper hand form is a big part in proper punching. Again, I don't hit one, but I do regularly hit focus pads and bags both with and without gloves and have good results. How much difference is the makiwara going to make with that? Third, punching is not the only option. Open handed strikes can also yield very good results.

Mike

 

[The Kai]

Point taken and I do remember that he did break his hand. Now, I don't hit a makiwara, so maybe you can answer this question for me. First, there are other methods of hand conditioning correct? I find it odd that the poster made it seem as if that is the only way of conditioning the hands. Second, I would think that proper hand form is a big part in proper punching. Again, I don't hit one, but I do regularly hit focus pads and bags both with and without gloves and have good results. How much difference is the makiwara going to make with that? Third, punching is not the only option. Open handed strikes can also yield very good results.

Mike

IMHO opinion you are right on all your points, Boxers have a tendency to fire punchs with thier hands partially open (helps keep punchs snappy). If you make a practice the correct fist formations can help (esp the 'goju" fist form). Basicaaly there are a ton of ways to conditipon the fist, the problem with the makiwara is that you are crunching the bone. In time you will have problems. If you do decide to try makiwara keepp it light going more more the abrasion then straight impact
Todd