Funny, I thought I knew just about all the Illinois Shidoshi. Who did your Shidoshi-ho train under?
Ninjustu acceptance in the Martail Arts World
- Thread starter Kumori Ryu Ninja
- Start date
Funny, I thought I knew just about all the Illinois Shidoshi. Who did your Shidoshi-ho train under?
What's with the 'Champaign' name? It's close enough to 'champagne' to be a breach of copyrightYeah, the French have copyright on the name.
Champaign is the French word for " an open level place," or a plain.
Tanaka
Purple Belt
Hello,
You are in a serious misunderstanding. There isn't a "fight" within Ninjutsu. There is however... People who are tired of seeing people EXPLOIT Ninjutsu due to it being exotic to western people. They have no desire to have actual lineage. No desire to go about it the RIGHT way. Instead they become frauds and damage the concept even MORE in peoples eyes. It's disrespectful to people who have worked hard to learn this concept/philosophy and to preserve the actuality of this concept and philosophy. Only to have people like YOU turn it into fantasy. Exploiting all kinds of concepts/terms incorrectly obviously for their exotic and "cool" appeal to Westerners. Especially those who just get done watching Sho Kosugi movie, and now want to be a Ninja. If you went ahead and did things correctly you wouldn't be experiencing what you are experience. People tend to give respect where respect is due. Especially on this forum. But COME ON... you come on here and disrespect what people have worked hard to preserve and abuse Japanese language and respected concepts. Yet expect to be treated with open arms of encouragement?
You've done what ANY practitioner from any art would criticize. Starting an art when you're only a beginner and have no concept or understanding of the principles of the art you're trying to pass on.
That would be all of Illinois, which is flat as a pancake. And I should know, I lived in the Peoria/Pekin/Morton area until the age of 12, when my parents moved us to Colorado. Hmmm. Similarities!
No cornfield ninjers that I'm aware of. Of course, I guess I would not be able to see them if they were there.
oaktree
Master of Arts
Hi Kumori
No one from what I have read on the threads has animosity towards you.
People post vaild questions to you and try to correct things that are seen uncorrect.
My reading of your post senses someone who has a strong dedication to this art but may be going about it in a direction that may not be the best method.
It is unheard of for one to go from 6kyu to Menkyo Kaiden maybe an honorary rank or what ever the most plausible scenerio though, unlikely.
The fighting is not so much Xkan vs Xkan but between Xkan and those who wish to consider themselves a reconstruction of Ninjutsu.
Now if people are happy doing this same as LARPERS great enjoy yourself.
Historically the connection between this and authentic Ninjutsu is invaild.
The debates are when such tries to establish itself as a real legit Ninjutsu school.
I guess in other words it is like comparing a 440 stainless steel katana with one that is hand forged by a swordsmith lineage both are swords no doubt about it but only one has a transmission and the quality is known.
A 6kyu rank in any art is still someone trying to learn fundamentals.
The term Shodan is beginner level or one who has the body ready to be able to learn.
As I have spoken before putting Ryu means you are the head of that particular Ryu doing so means in Martial concept that your skills are at Menkyo Kaiden level.
I have no agenda either way Kumori I can only state facts and how you may be perceived. I am afraid others in your dealings with people concerning this name may not be as gentle and honest with you some cases here on Martial Talk are brutally honest well some people are this way I suppose.
Try not to takes things so hard, examine what people are saying and good luck.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi, I'm a little grumpy at present, so bear with me everyone....
Ninjutsu is not based on the idea of perserverance, that is the literal translation of the Shinobu kanji, but it takes on myriad reasons when used in context. You're taking this way too literally. It's like thinking that all Jujutsu people are "gentle" in the way they do things....
In terms of helping all who strive to learn and grow, you have been given plenty of information, education, and advice, and have refused to take any on board. So how about we start with whether or not you are willing or even wanting to learn and grow, all the evidence you have shown indicates no. In your position, the way to learn and grow is simple: Get a teacher. Until you do that, you're playing dress-ups. Especially with who you're associating with... but we'll get to that.
You are either taking your instructors idealistic words too literally again, or you don't understand what they were saying. In terms of the rest of this paragraph, there is far less animosity here than on pretty much all other forums in the Ninjutsu sections. But you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt that already, right?
There is no superior mindset here. There is simply the understanding of what the art actually is, rather than just accepting anyone who decides that after watching a Sho Kosugi marathon that they are a ninja.... but you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt from that, right?
Please let go of your misunderstandings and learn from them... oh, and I'd suggest losing the literal idealistic take on what you think a "true martial artist" is, as it's like someone deciding what all the police should do and be like after watching Hawaii Vice.
No, that's not what it's like at all. For one thing, there are only two Soke, one of which was a former student of the other. Both are heads of their own organisations (the Bujinkan and the Genbukan). Anyone else claiming to be a Soke of a Ninjutsu system (not refering to Koryu traditions that include Ninjutsu in their teachings, such as Katori Shinto Ryu) frankly is not. End of story.
To be completely frank here, you have no idea whatsoever what it takes to keep a tradition alive, or what that actually entails. The schools that are most interested in that tend to have very stringent entry requirements, and are more restrictive in who gets to join than more modern schools (or anything else, really!), to the point where a number only have a handful of students. These are the Koryu traditions, by the way.
You have not formed your own Ryu, as you show no understanding of what a Ryu is. You have put together a few things that you remember from an incredibly short time training. Come back in 20 years when you have some experience, okay? Oh, and as for you bringing a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu? What on earth are you on about there? You have no influence on the acceptance of the art, and if you wanted to actually do that, join a legit organisation, train hard, get experienced and skilled, and use that to garner greater acceptance. What you are doing will only lead to more ridicule of the art. Seriously.
You choose to misuse terminology, claim to have created something with basically no basis whatsoever, but because you choose to, it's fine? Doesn't quite work that way...
Oh, and we have the idea that you have no understanding, knowledge, experience etc of the art, the culture, the language and so on from your posts here and your website (by the way, on that topic, Elder was not linking your site to provide any advertising for it, it was pointing out how bizarre your claims are, so not sure why you thanked him for that....). Your continual use of the term "Uke" for any training member (even after I explained how inaccurate that was), your mention of "being a student of Nin", and the issues that Bruno mentioned are just part of it.
But I'm with Bruno. Our opinions are not of value to you. These posts are mainly so others have a good understanding of where you actually are coming from.
You may be proud of him, but to the rest of us this is rather ridiculous. For many reasons. You are years away from being a teacher yourself, let alone any "student" of yours.
Okay, the "other organisation" there.... here we go: http://ninjabob.webs.com/society.htm "Ninja Bob"?
This does nothing for you, you know.
As far as the rest of this post, if your sensei quit, he probably had his reasons, and it may well have not been a mistake for him. And if you want to continue, the answer is simple: Get a teacher! End of story. The rest of your approach is frankly not going to garner any respect for Ninjutsu, or from the actual Ninjutsu community for you. Going to a new instructor and actually learning and training, on the other hand, will.
Your choice.
Ninjutsu is not based on the idea of perserverance, that is the literal translation of the Shinobu kanji, but it takes on myriad reasons when used in context. You're taking this way too literally. It's like thinking that all Jujutsu people are "gentle" in the way they do things....
In terms of helping all who strive to learn and grow, you have been given plenty of information, education, and advice, and have refused to take any on board. So how about we start with whether or not you are willing or even wanting to learn and grow, all the evidence you have shown indicates no. In your position, the way to learn and grow is simple: Get a teacher. Until you do that, you're playing dress-ups. Especially with who you're associating with... but we'll get to that.
You are either taking your instructors idealistic words too literally again, or you don't understand what they were saying. In terms of the rest of this paragraph, there is far less animosity here than on pretty much all other forums in the Ninjutsu sections. But you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt that already, right?
There is no superior mindset here. There is simply the understanding of what the art actually is, rather than just accepting anyone who decides that after watching a Sho Kosugi marathon that they are a ninja.... but you've been told that already, so you've grown and learnt from that, right?
Please let go of your misunderstandings and learn from them... oh, and I'd suggest losing the literal idealistic take on what you think a "true martial artist" is, as it's like someone deciding what all the police should do and be like after watching Hawaii Vice.
No, that's not what it's like at all. For one thing, there are only two Soke, one of which was a former student of the other. Both are heads of their own organisations (the Bujinkan and the Genbukan). Anyone else claiming to be a Soke of a Ninjutsu system (not refering to Koryu traditions that include Ninjutsu in their teachings, such as Katori Shinto Ryu) frankly is not. End of story.
To be completely frank here, you have no idea whatsoever what it takes to keep a tradition alive, or what that actually entails. The schools that are most interested in that tend to have very stringent entry requirements, and are more restrictive in who gets to join than more modern schools (or anything else, really!), to the point where a number only have a handful of students. These are the Koryu traditions, by the way.
You have not formed your own Ryu, as you show no understanding of what a Ryu is. You have put together a few things that you remember from an incredibly short time training. Come back in 20 years when you have some experience, okay? Oh, and as for you bringing a new sense of acceptance into the world of Ninjutsu? What on earth are you on about there? You have no influence on the acceptance of the art, and if you wanted to actually do that, join a legit organisation, train hard, get experienced and skilled, and use that to garner greater acceptance. What you are doing will only lead to more ridicule of the art. Seriously.
You choose to misuse terminology, claim to have created something with basically no basis whatsoever, but because you choose to, it's fine? Doesn't quite work that way...
Oh, and we have the idea that you have no understanding, knowledge, experience etc of the art, the culture, the language and so on from your posts here and your website (by the way, on that topic, Elder was not linking your site to provide any advertising for it, it was pointing out how bizarre your claims are, so not sure why you thanked him for that....). Your continual use of the term "Uke" for any training member (even after I explained how inaccurate that was), your mention of "being a student of Nin", and the issues that Bruno mentioned are just part of it.
But I'm with Bruno. Our opinions are not of value to you. These posts are mainly so others have a good understanding of where you actually are coming from.
You may be proud of him, but to the rest of us this is rather ridiculous. For many reasons. You are years away from being a teacher yourself, let alone any "student" of yours.
Okay, the "other organisation" there.... here we go: http://ninjabob.webs.com/society.htm "Ninja Bob"?
This does nothing for you, you know.
As far as the rest of this post, if your sensei quit, he probably had his reasons, and it may well have not been a mistake for him. And if you want to continue, the answer is simple: Get a teacher! End of story. The rest of your approach is frankly not going to garner any respect for Ninjutsu, or from the actual Ninjutsu community for you. Going to a new instructor and actually learning and training, on the other hand, will.
Your choice.
Archangel M
Senior Master
A metaphor from my experience (as I have no "Ninja" experience) are the guys who buy a 2K Ar15 and a plate carrier with all the pouches and "blood type patches". Top this costume off with an American flag ball cap, "tactical pants" and thigh holster. Then they take a few carbine courses and then go on about how they are "gunfighters", warriors, better shots and better trained than a SWAT cop..yadda yadda yadda.
"The Way" is deeper than technique, a weapon or a costume.
"The Way" is deeper than technique, a weapon or a costume.
Aiki Lee
Master of Arts
Hey Kumori,
This seems an awful lot like a thread that existed a few years ago. You may want to look up "Kung Maky Ung Ninjitisu" in the threads.
Personally, I have no problem with people breaking away from organizations to form there own. However they must be qualified. To teach ninjutsu on your own, in your own organization I believe you must first have been a liscensed teacher in those arts. One cannot assume they know enough to teach without having first been recoginzed by his teachers as ready to take that responsibility.
You do seem very respectful, and I don't think you are a troll but people on these forums may treat you as one because this is not the first time these kinds of subjects have been brought up and you are not the first to do it.
If you have enough experience to teach I suggest teaching what you know best, not what seems most interesting to you. If it is interesting then train in it, but don't teach it until others recognize your understanding and ask you for it.
About the "in-fighting":
Usually I don't see much problems between the genbukan, bujinkan, jinekan. They may have their differences and disagreements but I don't think any of those groups tlls the other that they are not practicing traditional ninja and samurai arts.
There are other groups that are legitmate that are lesser known (legitimacy usually being determined by having once been connected to the xkans), but their legitmacy needs to be proven and trced back to qualified teachers.
The dubious groups that I'm sure you don't want to be associated with are usually treated with disdain because they either make up a lineage that doesn't exist, or they are grossly under qualified to be teaching without supervision from a qualified ninjutsu instructor.
I have no idea what kumori ryu is or who u really are, so I will check out your site.
Also if you do talk to Don Roley keep this in mind. From my experience with him on this forum he is a bit rough around the edges and very opinionated (but hey who isn't?), however he does tend to know what he is talking about when it comes to lineage and history.
This seems an awful lot like a thread that existed a few years ago. You may want to look up "Kung Maky Ung Ninjitisu" in the threads.
Personally, I have no problem with people breaking away from organizations to form there own. However they must be qualified. To teach ninjutsu on your own, in your own organization I believe you must first have been a liscensed teacher in those arts. One cannot assume they know enough to teach without having first been recoginzed by his teachers as ready to take that responsibility.
You do seem very respectful, and I don't think you are a troll but people on these forums may treat you as one because this is not the first time these kinds of subjects have been brought up and you are not the first to do it.
If you have enough experience to teach I suggest teaching what you know best, not what seems most interesting to you. If it is interesting then train in it, but don't teach it until others recognize your understanding and ask you for it.
About the "in-fighting":
Usually I don't see much problems between the genbukan, bujinkan, jinekan. They may have their differences and disagreements but I don't think any of those groups tlls the other that they are not practicing traditional ninja and samurai arts.
There are other groups that are legitmate that are lesser known (legitimacy usually being determined by having once been connected to the xkans), but their legitmacy needs to be proven and trced back to qualified teachers.
The dubious groups that I'm sure you don't want to be associated with are usually treated with disdain because they either make up a lineage that doesn't exist, or they are grossly under qualified to be teaching without supervision from a qualified ninjutsu instructor.
I have no idea what kumori ryu is or who u really are, so I will check out your site.
Also if you do talk to Don Roley keep this in mind. From my experience with him on this forum he is a bit rough around the edges and very opinionated (but hey who isn't?), however he does tend to know what he is talking about when it comes to lineage and history.
Just to echo, not that it ever actually works. Real world example. Way back in '93 or so I received my shodan in Toyama ryu from a lovely Japanese gentleman who passed away shortly thereafter (hopefully, not from shame at what numbnuts me was going to do next). I'd spent 4 years studying with him and felt that I had a solid understanding of the nuances of the cirriculum. Started a study group with some friends so I'd have someone to bang around with and it rather quickly became about 2 months of me "teaching" them kenjutsu. Thank God I had an epiphany after those 2 months where I realized I was not only teaching at nowhere near the level of my sensei but they were actually losing ground as I couldn't adapt what I had learned to their physiology. I was, I think, a diligent student and had often been able to help more green students with suggestions and advice. However, I was nowhere near ready to operate without a net. What I would have accomplished had I continued would not only be to teach my "students" poor skills, bad taijutsu, and bad habits but I'd have actually made it harder for them to learn good kenjutsu when they finally found a qualified teacher.
THAT is what an unqualified teacher does; they steal time and ability from their students. Unless you are truly a martial arts prodigy you simply cannot have the skills to adequately teach people without making them both clumsy and simplified in the timee you've descrribed. Even if you are said prodigy you will not have had the time to actually learn the techniques from the Bujinkan or any school really, so the best one can hope for is that you will translate the feeling of what you've learned into made up techniques that have never been tested in a real confrontation. To be blunt, there are already far too many teachers in the Bujinkan who are doing this, abusing their students with the best of intentions. Which makes the qualified teachers tend to get lost in the morass as most students have no clue how to diffferentiate a goodd teacher from a bad one.
This will sound harsh and I apologize for not being able to think up a better way to express myself. You are not ready to teach. You will create bad habits and blind spots in your student. You will do real damage to his martial art abilities. Sadly, the harder he practices the more damage that will be created and the longer it will take to repair that damage. An awful lot of people in martial arts and specifically in the Bujinkan have been damaged by these exact same best intentions.
I've studied several martial arts over the last 32 years or so. I chose the Bujinkan because of the sheer depth and breadth of the skills it offers. You will not do more than scratch the surface in the time you've studied even with the best of teachers. Don't let yourself become the sensei whose dojo I once visited who explained that he couldn't perform ganseki nage on me because I was "too tall". Please.
Matt
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
+1.
I am in the same situation with 2 years of training. from time to time, it happens that my sensei cannot make it to class. For example if he is off to a taikai, or in bed with he flue. Rare occasions but they happen.
I (or the sempai who is at the same level as I am) can take over the class, make sure everybody gets a good workout, and help them with their curriculum since they are at least 1 grade lower than I am. And since we only get new members sparingly, eveyrbody sort of knows what is expected. My primary function on those occasions is just to organize the class structure.
That does not mean that I am anywhere near qualified to teach class on a regular basis. I still discover new depths to the entire collection of things that I've already learned, and realize I was still making a lot of errors. If I had to teach, it would probably end with noone really making any progress in the end, and a lot of well intentioned stumbling about.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hell, I'd been training for 12+ years before I started teaching regularly... and even then it was under strict supervision to make sure I didn't screw up too badly (only happened a few times... I'm almost getting the hang of it now..... I hope.....)
Kumori Ryu Ninja
Orange Belt
Excellent posts everyone...
I appreciate everyone's input and look forward to reading more...
As for my school, credentials, teachers, Ect.. Im not here to discuss that in this post.. Im simply starting a discussion that I'm interested in... Ive found that there are many who love Ninjutsu and Many that love there own school and not the teachings of others that's fine.. Im not going to get involved with throwing around my opinion about your schools or your lineage..
As for me continuing learning from instructors, I am. I never said that Ive quit learning.. So please I insist that we keep to the topic at hand and part from starting another argument about "What is Ninjutsu"..
Thank you
I appreciate everyone's input and look forward to reading more...
As for my school, credentials, teachers, Ect.. Im not here to discuss that in this post.. Im simply starting a discussion that I'm interested in... Ive found that there are many who love Ninjutsu and Many that love there own school and not the teachings of others that's fine.. Im not going to get involved with throwing around my opinion about your schools or your lineage..
As for me continuing learning from instructors, I am. I never said that Ive quit learning.. So please I insist that we keep to the topic at hand and part from starting another argument about "What is Ninjutsu"..
Thank you
Bujingodai
Black Belt
I'm such a huge fan of accepting societies and people that refer to themselves as Ninja.
So to make the record straight, You had 4 yrs of training...now to form a ryu. However during this time period you have spawned a Sensei, who is now moved from you to teach on his own, 2 yrs of training give or take so you were teaching him to at 2 yrs of experience, now at 2 years he is doing his own thing. Any chance he may start his own ryu?
Just so I may ask, as I am also not a Kan. What did you have to show the society, black scorpion. In order for them to recognize you as a ryu? Not to mention the societies founder and their qualification.
You have very zen like answers, that takes practice.
Are you an older gentleman?
So to make the record straight, You had 4 yrs of training...now to form a ryu. However during this time period you have spawned a Sensei, who is now moved from you to teach on his own, 2 yrs of training give or take so you were teaching him to at 2 yrs of experience, now at 2 years he is doing his own thing. Any chance he may start his own ryu?
Just so I may ask, as I am also not a Kan. What did you have to show the society, black scorpion. In order for them to recognize you as a ryu? Not to mention the societies founder and their qualification.
You have very zen like answers, that takes practice.
Are you an older gentleman?
These are not the jedi you are looking for. Move along.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Move along...nothing to see here.
Kumori Ryu Ninja
Orange Belt
Bujingodai,
No sir Im not terribly old, lol 27 to be honest, I was a 3 yr student before I accepted my Student Brad.. He was my first Real student of the Ryu... Him and I worked together to refine his skill and work towards taking over the Illinois chapter of the Ryu...
As for the Black Scorpion Society, I was interested in there motives as a Ninjutsu Group.. They have the intent on unifying all martial artists and ninjutsu.. I appreciate where they stand and I admire Bobby Calvert for his efforts in the martial arts world... Ive found that any society that is accepting of all, is a society that I want to be a part of... There are groups that select and choose there students to keep a certain level of seclusion in there Dojo and Im perfectly fine with that, However when students and or teachers of another group start to tear other Dojo and schools apart it creates a wall between us that once built is very hard to knock down.. Ive found a federation to join that feels the same way I do about martial arts and Ninjutsu, and for that I am very grateful, I hope that this thread can allow people to stand up for what they believe is good and pure in intent, I understand the "true" Ninjutsu practitioners (I.E. x-kans) are very skeptical about those that have broken away or have started a training group to honor the Ninja spirit, However I hope that they see that it can come across as a condescending attitude towards those that are simply looking for a fun and entertaining way to stay in shape and learn great defensive skills..
Im very sure that Chris, Bruno and the others in hand are very good at what they do and I respect them for giving there opinoins, Infact I have learned a few things and have corrected a few of my mistakes based on there posts. BUT, I do not appreciate the tone in wich some have delivered their opinion of others...
I try to be open minded and accept others in the arts, I Hope that one day these posts can be viewed as the stepping stones to acceptance of all that love Ninjutsu!!!
Thank you and good luck to you all.... That means you too Mr. Parker!! lol
No sir Im not terribly old, lol 27 to be honest, I was a 3 yr student before I accepted my Student Brad.. He was my first Real student of the Ryu... Him and I worked together to refine his skill and work towards taking over the Illinois chapter of the Ryu...
As for the Black Scorpion Society, I was interested in there motives as a Ninjutsu Group.. They have the intent on unifying all martial artists and ninjutsu.. I appreciate where they stand and I admire Bobby Calvert for his efforts in the martial arts world... Ive found that any society that is accepting of all, is a society that I want to be a part of... There are groups that select and choose there students to keep a certain level of seclusion in there Dojo and Im perfectly fine with that, However when students and or teachers of another group start to tear other Dojo and schools apart it creates a wall between us that once built is very hard to knock down.. Ive found a federation to join that feels the same way I do about martial arts and Ninjutsu, and for that I am very grateful, I hope that this thread can allow people to stand up for what they believe is good and pure in intent, I understand the "true" Ninjutsu practitioners (I.E. x-kans) are very skeptical about those that have broken away or have started a training group to honor the Ninja spirit, However I hope that they see that it can come across as a condescending attitude towards those that are simply looking for a fun and entertaining way to stay in shape and learn great defensive skills..
Im very sure that Chris, Bruno and the others in hand are very good at what they do and I respect them for giving there opinoins, Infact I have learned a few things and have corrected a few of my mistakes based on there posts. BUT, I do not appreciate the tone in wich some have delivered their opinion of others...
I try to be open minded and accept others in the arts, I Hope that one day these posts can be viewed as the stepping stones to acceptance of all that love Ninjutsu!!!
Thank you and good luck to you all.... That means you too Mr. Parker!! lol
Kumori Ryu Ninja
Orange Belt
Oh don't worry yourself Bruno@MT
I have officially left the Bujinkan for good...
I still read and seek out the teachings however...
I am not looking to receive any rank or certification from the Bujinkan whatsoever.
Im not interested in rank only experience!!
Thank you for your posts!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I don't know about fighting within the ninjutsu community, but threads like this don't reflect well from my perspective on the outside looking in. Threads like this are embarrassing to even read. My hat is off to you guys for keeping a level head and managing to remain polite. I wouldn't have it in me to do the same if an equivalent thread popped up from someone pretending to start some kind of make believe flavor of brazilian jiu jitsu.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
Almost!
*puts on whiny voice* Senseeeeeei...... I'm 24, turning 25 in about a week and have been a student for about 3 years now... and I can correct the new kids on stuff so you don't have to... Can I start my own Ryu yet? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease???? *bats eyelashes* I've got my $20 ready to send to the 'Society' and everything!
