Ninjukai Taijutsu

[questions]

do you believe that what you have read is all of the information on Jushi Oshima?
and having all the information on a subject, do you think this would change the course of your thoughts?

 

[sojobow]

Not speaking of anyone in particular:

It is always interesting to note how those without direct "Blood" association to the ancient Iga or Koga feel that they have any status or feel that they should be listened to or honored as one. Some of us study certain aspects of the Koga's martial art but we do not claim to be their descendants.

One cannot be a "fraud" unless one claims direct blood association between himself and the ancients and one cannot be a caretaker of the lineage unless he/she also has the bloodline within. But since "free speech" is a Constitutional Right in American, those espousing that they are some type of "caretaker" of some ancient Japanese lineage of which they, themselves, do not belong, seems somewhat borne of ignorance at the least and folley at best.

If someone is teaching "Ninjutsu," how can someone else label this person a "fraud." No bloodline is required to teach or learn any subject but a bloodline is required for pure identification *DNA*. One does not have to be a Cherokee to teach their language but would have to have this Native's blood to be included as this Native's mitochondral(sp) brother.

Guess there is always exceptions.

 

[Genin Andrew]

i agree sojobow... as a response to one of the posts before, its not the fact that i "like what i see" or "hear" from john ang or the Hombu Dojo.Basically sojobow said alot of what i was going to respond with.John ang doesnt teach ninjutsu or doesnt claim to have lineage to ancient practitioners of ninjutsu,he teaches ninjukai taijutsu.you cannot claim to know everything about the ninja and there art because you practice in the bujinkan and have read a few hatsumi or hayes books.Hatsumi Sensei is one person that represents one lineage out of many possible lineages to ancient ninja families.Not even history can record all the "genuine" lineages only the ones that the west found and often exploited.Basically the history of Ninpo,Ninjutsu or the art of the ninja to be more specific is so varied through history,there are so many "stories" and facts all interwined over hundreds of years,i dont think anyone is in the position to say who or what is genuine and what isnt.Remember that the ninja didnt want to be recognised worldwide,they didnt want the status of fame,they were people that isolated themselves from society and lived in secrecy.Alot of what you are saying is contradicting the "known history" of the ninja...but anyways i wont preach anymore,i think we who study the art of the ninja beleive what we want and reject what we dont want...its up to the individual...take what you want from john ang or hatsumi sensei and make up your own mind...just lastly,even though it is very long!!! please do read johns essay on ninjutsu which is a link under his biography.Its just a simple explanation of the differences in the two arts.

 

[Don Roley]

One cannot be a "fraud" unless one claims direct blood association between himself and the ancients

Check the dictionary. A fraud is anyone making false claims. Thus Frank Dux with his claims of being a CIA agent is a fraud. That goes for his other silly claims that he can not prove as well. John Ang on his web site makes claims of being taught by a teacher. Since he probably just made this stuff out of thin air, he is a fraud as well. I see no proof that he actually had a teacher in ninjukai, and have run across no mention of what he claims in Japanese sources.

In short, he seems to be as fraudulant as Frank Dux. Of course, Dux has a bunch of rather low- experienced folks who think he is great while people like Dale Seago have alow opinion of him and his skills. So it is not surprise that John Ang would aslo appeal to a large number of people, but not to those of us who train in Japan.

 

[questions]

?

 

[Don Roley]

?

!

 

[questions]

Do you believe that miyamoto Musashi was a fraud?

Yagyu Muneyoshi later to be known as Sekishusai argueably said to have been the greatest swordman of all time. Who is also the father of Yagyu Munenori. Who was the personal teacher of Tokugawa Hidetada 1601. Who later became Shogunke Heiho Shihan, (or Martial Arts teacher to the family of Shogans). Then later was appointed to the head of the secret service. Also like Miyamoto Musashi had no teacher, are they frauds too?

Kamiizumi-Isenokami Hidetsuna, the inventer of a new style called "Shikage-ryu" (the shadow school) Said to have been the most influencial man to Sekishusai and the also man to have defeated him. Is he a fraud too??

The founder Katori Shinto Ryu Iizasa Choisai Ienao who died at the age of 102 his school still runs today in Japan. Is he a fraud???? And what of his followers??

All of these men created these styles from "The Way" according to your comments these are all (back yard) jobs!! Invented from their heads!!!!!

And at some stage your arts were also invented from someones head, so before I answer any questions on Ninjukai Taijutsu I need to know that the people that I am communicating with are intelligent enough for that kind of information!!!!!

 

[Don Roley]

If someone claims to have studied under someone and did not, they are a fraud. Miyamoto Musashi, Yagyu Muneyoshi, etc, never made claims they did not back up. Thus they are not frauds, but Ang appears to be. I also doubt Ang has one hundreth the skill as Musashi did.

 

[questions]

To begin with my last comments were not aimed at you at all. But since you insist to make yourself present, I shall give you a short history lesson Don Roley. I wont start at the beginning as we will be hear all year writing the information. I will start with General Tomoyoki Yamashita the famous man who led the Japanese army and took Singapore. At this time he was the Shihan of The World Ninja Society or what is known at Ninjukai Taijutsu. Once occupied he moved the headquarters dojo from Kyoto to Malaysia, for obvious reasons where he encouraged his men of The Red Sun army and the locals to participate in the training. After the war General Yamashita was executed for war crimes which is a well documented fact. There are many books about him including many photos of him as well as him standing in front of his dojo. I'm sure Japan would have a lot of information available on this man. (everwhere else does!) After his death Yamishita's two assistants Katsuta Inazu and Hoken Takano both 7th dan black belts played an important role of gain in popularity of the art among Jananese soldiers. After the war the headquarters remained in Malaysia Akito Yashida 8th dan black belt and former sergant major in the imperial army took the helm. He recieved the highest honour of The World Ninja Society and retired back to Japan. He is not included in the 3 living grandmasters because of his honour. Shihan John Ang 6th dan and personal student of Yashida took over the Malaysian school in 1977. Shihan John Ang is a world reknowned practitioner of Kuatsu and is the only one in Australia, this is an extremely high honour and this information is available in Kuatsu archives or check in Medicare. The Kyoto dojo of Ninjukai Taijutsu was reopened in 1958 and is still open today and is headed by an ex-imperial army verteran Shihan Kehei Inaxu 7th dan black belt. Obviously Shihan John Ang came to Perth Western Australia. This information was extremely easy to come across all I needed was a library, look under the world war II section. General Yamashita is a well known man information on him is very easy to obtain by anyone. This tells me 2 things about your character, you are either lazy or are uninterested in the truth only accepting that which you want to believe. This would be a direct reflection of your physical abilities and your approach to your training. After all the mind guides the body. I would suggest to leave the talking to those who are hear to help others. "As the proverb says, if you have nothing nice to say dont say anything at all". You should concentrate more on your own self development. You have become an overly predictable person from what I have seen of all of your comments. This will be more evident in your reply, I know you will come back at my thoughts with all of your guns blazing. Because you cannot accept yourself yet and your ego will not allow you to lose.

Only a true warrior understands that he must accept defeat before he can win. As it would be in the physical I will simply side step you and will have won. Therefore you are already defeated!!

 

[Don Roley]

The Kyoto dojo of Ninjukai Taijutsu was reopened in 1958 and is still open today and is headed by an ex-imperial army verteran Shihan Kehei Inaxu 7th dan black belt.

Everything you wrote was pretty much Bovine Feces. I almost fell off my seat laughing so hard. However, if you are not lying through your teeth, you should be able to give some sort of contact information for the above dojo and teacher. I rather expect you to come up with some sort of excuse.

Oh, and if you are going to try to say that I would deny the truth even if you give the information, then I say we ask Saitama Steve, who does not study any ninjutsu art but does live in Japan and speak the language. You give both him and me (heck- post it publically) the contact info and if I say I can't reach them, then he tries.

Of course, if what you know what you are writing is complete poppycock, then you will find some sort of interesting excuse rather than agree.

Waiting for the excuses to begin with a box of popcorn ready.

 

[Genin Andrew]

questions, i appreciate you're post and informative research which you provided,i already knew alot of it but you told me alot which i did not have much an idea of so i thankyou for your time and dedication to shed abit of truth and maturity on the matter being discussed.That being the legitemacy of Ninjukai Taijutsu.I personally would never call anyone a fraud without doing at least a "small amount" of research on the person(which doesnt include going to www.ninjukai.com.au and taking a look at john angs photo and going "oh that guys a fraud for sure).But nto everyone is like me and i find it hard not to get offended when my teacher is branded as a fraud.so i openly invite anyone who is interested in the art of ninjukai to come down to the dojo and check it out,or if this is not possible,to ring up and have a chat to Jonin Richard Fischer who will answer(he is the Dojo manager)and talk to him about the art.I think its important to anyone who studies martial arts disciplines to honour themselves and their art and act with a bit of maturity rather than throwing around offensive statements.as mentioned before this forum is for helping others,not conemning.
regards-andrew

 

[questions]

Try reading The History of World War II by Lt Colonel E. Bauer, General Editor Brigadier Peter Young, Consultants Brigadier General James l. Collins Jr Correlli Barnett.

Obviously you havent checked in the time it took you to answer. The truth is always the truth no matter how much you argue.

I suggest that you make sure the adjustments on your chair are okay as I dont want you to fall off laughing and get a library card. I will not duel with you anymore until you have learned the lesson I have put before you. All you are doing now is struggling in my hold and as you flap around my grip is becomming tighter and tighter.

Some people take longer to grow than others.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Don Roley,i have no fued with you nor do i wish to start one.And i respect you for the martial artist that you are.However all i ask is that you remain disciplined and keep comments to yourself.I could lash out a little more and say keep your "misguided and misinformed or uneducated comments" to yourself but i will keep cvilised.You honour your art and i honour mine.we both pursue our training and continue to grow as warriors or just humans in general.So i ask that unless you have positive educational information to provide to remain silent.I understand that i am in no position to tell you anything or tell you to do anything,these are just my wishes.
much respect
-andrew

 

[Don Roley]

so i openly invite anyone who is interested in the art of ninjukai to come down to the dojo and check it out,or if this is not possible,to ring up and have a chat to Jonin Richard Fischer who will answer(he is the Dojo manager)and talk to him about the art.

And the excuses begin. Questions tags out and Genin Andrews takes the heat and tries to deflect attention by inviting people down to the local dojo for a talk.

Ok!

But I live in Japan. It is closer to me to go to Kyoto for the dojo that you guys say exists down there, but which I can't find in any Japanese source I have.

So, give me the contact info! Gimme! I don't want to go to Australia, I want an excuse to go to Kyoto! You guys made the claim there were active dojos in Japan, and now you are trying to divert attention away from that fact when called on it. Classic Sojobow tactics!

So gimme, gimme, gimme! You made the invitation, you said there was a dojo in Japan, you don't have any real excuse left. Let me see, you may say that I am not worthy somehow of meeting the teacher, or that you do not know and Questions is going to stay away for a while. I sit in anticipation as to which it will be.

But I know this, I know I am never going to get the contact info for the dojo you claim exists.

 

[Don Roley]

Can this thread be moved to "Horror Stories"?

It seems appropriate to me.

The Ninjukai guys are using a variation of the Fujita Seiko argument.

Fujita was known in Japan as a practicioner of Koga style ninjutsu. He died in a car crash and left no succesor. Today, there are several guys that claim to have learned and inherited his art. No one in Japan knows about these guys, but they are all over the internet and open schools outside of Japan.

People tend to look at the fact that Fujita was a real ninja and the guys are claiming to be descendents of his art. So they believe the claimnents since Fujita was real person after all.

So, was there a general named Yamashita? Yep. Is there any proof that he started a modern style of ninjutsu, HECK NO! It is the same tactics as the guys claiming to be Koga style ninjas from Fujita's tradition. You claim to come from a person who actually existed and expect people to believe all the other claims you make about him.

Here is a little piece of trivia, I checked with a book called the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and there was no mention of Ninjukai Taijutsu. So?, you may ask. Well the BRDJ was compiled in the 1960s (my version) by a guy who tried to put together a book of all the martial arts that ever existed in Japan. There were four different editions as he tried to update the book with new information. If there was ANY mention of an art he could find, he included it in his book.

So where is Ninjukai Taijutsu? It does not appear in the last and most complete version I have. I can find ancient arts such as the Chujo ryu, rare arts such as the NinKou ryu, and modern arts like Aikido and the Yoshinkan. But 40 years after Yamashita supposably started his art, the compiler of the BRDJ did not seem to know about it. But there was a guy who started making money off of teaching it in Australia.

Oh yeah, and let us not forget that the Ninjukai guys are claiming that there was a dojo opened in Kyoto in 1958. But they have ignored any calls for proof. So this dojo was opened before the last edition of the BRDJ was published but there is no mention of this art. In fact, I can not find a mention of it in ANY Japanese source. Oh, I can find reference to the fact that Yamashita was general, but nothing about his martial arts claims.

I expect them to say that no one source can know everything, but I know they will never provide a source themselves. Classic tactics of the fraud.

And the Ninjukai guys have ignored any call for proof that this dojo they claim exists in Japan actually is real.

Yep, time to move this to the horror stories section.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Don Roley,Your constant hints that you leave throughout your posts for the opposing party(me and questions obviously) to reply makes me wonder how much time you spend on this site and how much you thrive on controversy.I have no reason to go out of my way to prove myself to you or the history of my art.Your excessively long post led me to believe that you are someone who is trying very hard to prove yourself,There is no need to try so hard and go to so much effort to condemn me and my art.I personally never stated that there are active Ninjukai dojos in kyoto to this day.However i know that there once was.Ninjukai no longer exists to a well known level in Japan,it is now based in Australia.Maybe thats why you are struggling so much to find a dojo or evidence of a dojo which does not exist...Questions was the one who gave me the extended history of Ninjukai and provided extensive research which i found very interesting.And i dont doubt his statements for a second,the truth is that it is very hard for two people on other sides of the world to come to an understanding on a subject that is so controversial,this argument if you want to call it that really has no value,its futile to continue.
i have a life to lead and an art to practice,i suggest you do the same and try not to get so caught up on the internet.

 

[Genin Andrew]

Mr Roley, As of late in this thread our posts have adopted a mild hostile approach.I do not wish to be enemies or get into these lame arguments over the internet.This site is for "educating"(take that as you will) and helping other martial arts practitioners in their studies.So i propose that we keep the social,friendly atmosphere on this site and quit the b*******.I think we will both agree that lashing out at others over the internet is quite pathetic and a true flaw in personality.I respect what you have said and your input into this thread,though it has not changed my thoughts or attitudes.So i propose a mutual agreement that me and you are both martial arts practitioners who study "A Way"...argue with that if you wish...

 

[Don Roley]

I personally never stated that there are active Ninjukai dojos in kyoto to this day.However i know that there once was.

Well it was said by Questions that,

The Kyoto dojo of Ninjukai Taijutsu was reopened in 1958 and is still open today and is headed by an ex-imperial army verteran Shihan Kehei Inaxu 7th dan black belt.

And I call your attention to the part that says, and is still open today .

Of course, now that you have been called on it, Questions will kind of fade into the background, you will alternate between insulting me and asking for us all to "think of the children" as you go on your merry way spreading the same type of manure as Sojobow.

In fact, your tactics, etc, are all pretty much taken from Sojobow's play book.

The Ninjukai claimed it had a dojo in Japan. There is no proof that there ever was a dojo, or that Yamashita created the art that he did. You want us to beleive you are legit and not cut of the same cloth as Frank Dux, then back up your statements about where the dojo in Kyoto is.

 

[Enson]

i picked this up today on another discussion. thought maybe andrew can clear things up.

Okay, here's the deal with Ninjukai. I'm not speaking for the entire martial art here, but I figure somebody should answer your questions. Also, I'm not here to start a flamewar so let's keep this civil.


Quote: [font=Arial,Helvetica]they dont seem to glorify Ninjutsu very well.[/font]We don't have anything against Ninjutsu in general, it's the commercialisation and 'impurification' caused by fakes like Ashida Kim that we don't like. We've never claimed that there aren't any legitimate Ninjutsu organisations.


Quote: [font=Arial,Helvetica]All I can say is anyone who runs around with a headband on obviously bought from Toys 'R' Us is very d**mnergous to themselves and others.[/font]I might have similar things to say about Kuji-in if I wasn't more open-minded. Headbands, or hachimaki in Japanese, are used in Kendo and Karate and presumably many other martial arts.


Quote: [font=Arial,Helvetica]From the web site it would appera that they have mixed a few martial arts together and are wrongly calling this Ninjutsu.[/font]Ninjukai Taijutsu is not Ninjutsu and has never claimed to be such. It is an original martial art, however.


Quote: [font=Arial,Helvetica]I do not believe that they have any branches in New Zealand either.[/font]No, we have a number of branch dojos in Perth and that's about it.


Quote: [font=Arial,Helvetica]Hehe, although I do like their funky camouflage Gi's[/font]Yeah, those are kinda cool.

Generally only the higher belts wear them, but they're not restricted. Some people like to wear them to the annual forest retreat.

In summary, we don't dislike Ninjutsu. Ninjukai Taijutsu is a separate martial art from any form of Ninjutsu and that's the main point of the page that talks about both arts.

If anyone else has any questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

Jeff Saunders

you can find the discussion on http://www.xsorbit4.com/users/yamajutsu-kai/index.cgi?board=ninja&action=display&num=1026575482
not trying to start anything andrew... but thought you should have a look!

 

[heretic888]

Pardon my bluntness... but if its a "different art than Ninjutsu", why is it being discussed on the Ninjutsu forums??