New view on an old technique

[miguksaram]

I found this very interesting when I watched it. It is interpreting the use of the double knife hand block. What do you all think?

Can't wait to try it out.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We practice something similar to the 1st "variation" shown with the right hand almost behind the back, and the left hand along the right jaw line as the wrap up. The "basic" interpretation is a simple knife hand block. However, in reference to its application in a situation like posted above.. .

The right hand traps the wrist as it goes towards the back, thus locking the elbow against your torso, the left elbow strikes the assailants jaw as your left hand wraps toward your right jaw line = the "wrap up" The left hand then strikes the neck with a knife hand, optionally taking out the knee with the left leg. There are, of course, variations on how this can play out. Particularly if we look at our forms. For instance, the 45 degree knife hands found in forms such as pyung ahn edan, work very well as throws. Whereas, the linear knife hands toward the beginning of pyung ahn edan work better as the strikes describe above, particularly as the first movement = block, 2nd knife hand =strike.

Just my 0.02.. .

 

[Cyriacus]

Wait, wait. This is a serious question.
...This isnt how its normally taught?
The first Counter, in which the Punch is circumvented and the Right Hand pushes in, then the Left Hand Knife Hand Strike.

In any case, not knowing how this works, I feel, is a result of some places not actually practicing these things on a Partner, and just doing the Movement.

 

[miguksaram]

I am not sure how GM Cyrus teaches it, but normally know you are not taught this type of application right away. Most schools, at least most TKD schools that I have had experience with, will teach it as a block and that is it.

 

[Ironcrane]

I found that quite interesting. Does that man have anymore stuff?

 

[Gemini]

but normally know you are not taught this type of application right away. Most schools, at least most TKD schools that I have had experience with, will teach it as a block and that is it.

That is often true, though teaching some basic movements to junior students is not that uncommon. The point is, from just a few basic movements, once you understand the concepts, can be manipulated into dozens of slightly different techniques. The trick is identifying which of those moves will work with your particular style. These look effective from a demonstrative point of view, but they offer little room for error. Try to throw a strike into a larger opponent grabbing you and moving his weight into you; a counter strike generating power from inches away is not what I would choose to counter with. I'm not saying what he's doing is ineffective, just not an "ultimate" technique.

 

[dcsma]

Thanks for the video. 1st post on the board here and love what I'm seeing from everyone. Always for personal knowledge looking for knew ways on old techniques and to be able to pass it on to my students when they are ready. Thanks

 

[mastercole]

Is there reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

The double knife hand middle block in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, is simply a middle block with the open hand, using the palmok or wrist as the blocking surface, like most all blocks do. All middle blocks types can be applied in a thousand different situations, even within Poomsae, dream some up, why not, that is the same thing his is presenting in his video.

The assisting arm covers the solar plexus with the palmok or wrist, maintaining a more active defense/attack ready position. There is no set standard as to how or when to apply it. Just like there is no set standard on how or when to apply a straight punch. Anyone is free, and encouraged to dream up a thousand different possibilities.

So that answer he got from some Taekwondoin that the assisting arm was simply protecting the stomach, was correct. Of course they could have, or may have expanded their explanation to add that the assisting arm is not only defense ready, but also attack ready. Some 8th and 9th Dan Taekwondoin, according to the description on his video apparently said they were not sure.

But he laughed at that answer in an apparent dis to the Taekwondoin that he spoke to, and Taekwondoin that would agree with them. All in all, a good marketing ploy, I mean look, we are discussing it now

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In Isshin-Ryu, we have that move encapsulated in our Chinto kata.

[video=youtube_share;5_JizKhiYBU]http://youtu.be/5_JizKhiYBU[/video]

This is not exactly the way we do it, but it will suffice. At 15 seconds, note the hands. Both in a knife hand, swept back, then forward. It continues across the body, then forward again in a double-handed strike. We are taught all kinds of application for this simple movement, much of it mirroring what your video clip above showed. We use it in a variety of other ways outside the Chinto kata, also as seen in your video. Amazing the similarities. Thanks for the clip!

 

[chrispillertkd]

"It's not really a block." I think it would be better if the "alternate application" folks would be more specific and say "It's not only useful as a block." I have seen people been hurt rather badly by being struck in the arm with a knife-hand guarding block. Also, contra GM Cyrus' statement about a straight finger-tip thrust not being strong enough to hit someone in the solar plexus I have seen people break multiple boards with it. Proper forging of the attacking or blocking tool is key.

Keupso jirugi is an interesting aspect of training. It can be quite effective if trained on a regular basis, just like the more mundane applications can be. One thing to remember, however, is that some of the "alternate applications" eventually get so far removed from the original body mechanics used in the technique that you have to wonder whether you're really doing an application of that technique.

Great video. Lots of good information in it.

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

I found that quite interesting. Does that man have anymore stuff?

 

[miguksaram]

That is often true, though teaching some basic movements to junior students is not that uncommon. The point is, from just a few basic movements, once you understand the concepts, can be manipulated into dozens of slightly different techniques. The trick is identifying which of those moves will work with your particular style. These look effective from a demonstrative point of view, but they offer little room for error. Try to throw a strike into a larger opponent grabbing you and moving his weight into you; a counter strike generating power from inches away is not what I would choose to counter with. I'm not saying what he's doing is ineffective, just not an "ultimate" technique.

No, not an ultimate technique at all. I agree that there are many variations that you can make out of this and other basic moves that we do. It is not my intent to say this is the only way to really do a knife hand block. I was discussing this with Sensei yesterday and mentioned that at this level of learning in my path is to better understand all the basics that I have already learned. I have worked with GM Cyrus in the past on a couple of occasions. I just thought I share some of his work with the folks.

 

[miguksaram]

Is there reason to make a mountain out of a mole hill?

The double knife hand middle block in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, is simply a middle block with the open hand, using the palmok or wrist as the blocking surface, like most all blocks do. All middle blocks types can be applied in a thousand different situations, even within Poomsae, dream some up, why not, that is the same thing his is presenting in his video.

The assisting arm covers the solar plexus with the palmok or wrist, maintaining a more active defense/attack ready position. There is no set standard as to how or when to apply it. Just like there is no set standard on how or when to apply a straight punch. Anyone is free, and encouraged to dream up a thousand different possibilities.

So that answer he got from some Taekwondoin that the assisting arm was simply protecting the stomach, was correct. Of course they could have, or may have expanded their explanation to add that the assisting arm is not only defense ready, but also attack ready. Some 8th and 9th Dan Taekwondoin, according to the description on his video apparently said they were not sure.

But he laughed at that answer in an apparent dis to the Taekwondoin that he spoke to, and Taekwondoin that would agree with them. All in all, a good marketing ploy, I mean look, we are discussing it now

Actually GM Cyrus used to be part of the USTU and attended events. I believe he is ranked a KKW 5th or 6th dan, but I am not 100% sure on this. Glenn knew him as well. He is a formal FBI agent and a certified OMD. I do not believe he trying to 'dis' anyone but instead just open minds to other aspects outside of "this is the only application".

He is not the first person to want to offer different explanations on techniques. Sometimes a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch. Then again sometimes it can be a lot more.

 

[Indie12]

Interesting!

 

[miguksaram]

In Isshin-Ryu, we have that move encapsulated in our Chinto kata.
This is not exactly the way we do it, but it will suffice. At 15 seconds, note the hands. Both in a knife hand, swept back, then forward. It continues across the body, then forward again in a double-handed strike. We are taught all kinds of application for this simple movement, much of it mirroring what your video clip above showed. We use it in a variety of other ways outside the Chinto kata, also as seen in your video. Amazing the similarities. Thanks for the clip!

Yes. That is the fun part of all of this. If you performed a set of basic techniques in front of 3 different masters of 3 different martial arts and never told them what style you were doing, they would each claim it came from their system. Not out of arrogance but out of recognition of the techniques that we all share.

 

[mastercole]

Actually GM Cyrus used to be part of the USTU and attended events. I believe he is ranked a KKW 5th or 6th dan, but I am not 100% sure on this. Glenn knew him as well. He is a formal FBI agent and a certified OMD. I do not believe he trying to 'dis' anyone but instead just open minds to other aspects outside of "this is the only application".

He is not the first person to want to offer different explanations on techniques. Sometimes a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch. Then again sometimes it can be a lot more.

Well there is the thing, the 8th and 9th Dan's did not say "this is the only application" they said, I don't know, which I took to mean they did not have a specific application in mind. But he was asking them if they had a specific application in mind. The other guys said it means to defend your stomach, they did not say it could not also have other applications. They are probably like me, and have little to no interest in bunkai.

But I think most people's minds are open to the fact any technique is open to various interpretations.

From the video you can see that he has put a lot of time into what Japanese call "bunkai" and he does it well and probably researched it out, more than most people, certainly more than me because I don't care about bunkai. But I am not going to dis him over it, Ill praise him over it.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

From the video you can see that he has put a lot of time into what Japanese call "bunkai" and he does it well and probably researched it out, more than most people, certainly more than me because I don't care about bunkai. But I am not going to dis him over it, Ill praise him over it.

While I do enjoy learning, researching and practicing boonhae (bunkai), it does rub me the wrong way how many from the "application clique" dis those who do not practice it or have any interest in it. There are many roads that lead to the same place.. .

 

[mastercole]

While I do enjoy learning, researching and practicing boonhae (bunkai), it does rub me the wrong way how many from the "application clique" dis those who do not practice it or have any interest in it. There are many roads that lead to the same place.. .

When I use to fiddle around with it, it was very interesting to me, it was kind of like playing chess with your body parts. But after time, I lost interest. My original interest in martial arts centered around how I could do the most damage to an attacker, via striking. Almost all the violence I was experiencing in Cleveland's inner city as a youth (and even today) was being dished out by striking, stabbing or shooting. I never saw anyone get anyone in and arm bar, trap punching hand, etc. I also trained in boxing as a kid and practicing Isshin Ryu at the time only fueled my boxing skills, teaching me how to hit deeper and correctly with my bare first came in real handy in bad situations. Those experiences and what I was looking for in striking martial arts sent me in other directions, away from bunkai.

That said, I think bunkai is certainly something to learn about to see if it is something to pursue.

 

[Earl Weiss]

""Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee"

"It is like a finger pointing toward the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory. Bruce Lee"

I am going to echo what Gemini and Mr. Spiller said. It gets kind of nauseating hearing people say "It's not this, it's really this". Yet Dilman says one thing, Vince Morris, another, perhaps Rick Clark, another. At leats rick Clark in his "Real Applications book is forthright enough to say in several places he does not know if the application is the "real" or original one, only that it works. (I have his "75 applications for thedown block" book as well. Are the yall "real"

As gemini alluded to, AFAIAC I have now come to the idea that if anyone focuses on a single real application, they are wrong. The purpose of any application is a tool to help you learn how to move effectively. In 1989 I wrote an article about the purpose of patterns http://371078645507472465-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/ntkdacad/files/Forms%2CPatterns%2CHyungs%2CAreyouSwimmingInSandTKDTimesJuly1989.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7coh79j8ugZgRT8Mz4Q5ED9B7ScgzbfrjRE-lR9GrHppzkGh96EaUzQauPTlnkLOWzaKiPSLS8e4TeMN1eKw0GfUK1h5v3S1NcjjDZJnXKI9Vc7M-D4UCrdq8lUY4XuObjyqZ8865WQ69kWD5f-KoXtwIUx_YeN11MX3vYStNCFWkXZge9QVqaP1gKQyz718M6b4159eDh8I70B7MTXo9zbb_DUx6RBHyDVysYtlq6MOApQR8DOjtz_-66KyWM8Nuq-yupfhj4jAddnQw9Z3ygE7Y3w70w%3D%3D&attredirects=0
In short it was to use the pattern move as a midpoint along a spectrum from which it was easy to vary the technique to either extreme depending on the need. Now, a couple of decades later I feel it is more like learning a move which is the center of a sphere varying it in 3 dmensions 360 degrees can serve any number of functions.

This is not a new idea ("Wax on wax off") Danial San was taught how to move first and how to apply the movement later. Perhaps not the most efficient way to teach, but perhaps the most encompassing.

 

[puunui]

Actually GM Cyrus used to be part of the USTU and attended events. I believe he is ranked a KKW 5th or 6th dan, but I am not 100% sure on this. Glenn knew him as well. He is a formal FBI agent and a certified OMD.

I saw GM Cyrus at a USTU meeting, in the Los Angeles area, in the 90's. He is a nice man. I also spoke to him over the phone a couple of times about Richard Hackworth when GM Cyrus was an FBI agent. I believe GM Cyrus said he was a student of Dr. Dong Ja YANG. He also practiced Kuk Sool and later took over the Chosun Do art from those two guys whose names I forget.