Taegue Il Jang application

[andyjeffries]

Pumsae (품새) has the following hanja: 品勢, and means "quality forms of strength." Pumsae does is not a Korean rendering of kata and is not a synonym for hyeong.

Sorry to say this Daniel but you're slightly incorrect; the old term poomse (품&#49464 had that hanja, the term was renamed in 1987 to be poomsae and this is a completely Korean work with no hanja equivalent.

Here's a link from "mastercole" which shows an except from a Kukkiwon magazine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/5837213335/in/pool-1667737@N25

 

[miguksaram]

So in KKW, are Hyung (as I understand what you said, *patterns*) shorter in length than Hyung (quality forms of strength)? And what is Tul?

Tul means 'pattern' and is a distinctive Korean word which is used to describe something that is "ready made" think cookie cutter. You press a cookie cutter down and you get a 'tul'.

For the most part the Taekguk use shorter stances than that of there predecessors, Palgue. They were designed for a couple of purposes, one in particular is that each on introduces techniques that the student will be learning at their particular rank. So if you look at Taeguk Il-jang you will see that it focuses in on basic blocks, punch and front snap kick as well as it starts the user off with their basic walking stance and forward stance.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Sorry to say this Daniel but you're slightly incorrect; the old term poomse (품&#49464 had that hanja, the term was renamed in 1987 to be poomsae and this is a completely Korean work with no hanja equivalent.

Here's a link from "mastercole" which shows an except from a Kukkiwon magazine:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grandmastercole/5837213335/in/pool-1667737@N25

While I am aware of this, my point is that Taegeuk pumsae are not Okinawan kata, renamed or otherwise. And regardless of the timing of the hanja change (25 years ago, which is literally half of the existence of the art), they never were.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So in KKW, are Hyung (as I understand what you said, *patterns*) shorter in length than Hyung (quality forms of strength)?

Hyung = pattern
Poomsae = quality forms of strength

No bearing on the length of the form in question.

And what is Tul?

Chang hon TKD terminology for forms. No idea of its actual translation or hanja.

 

[andyjeffries]

While I am aware of this, my point is that Taegeuk pumsae are not Okinawan kata, renamed or otherwise. And regardless of the timing of the hanja change (25 years ago, which is literally half of the existence of the art), they never were.

I agree with this.

 

[clfsean]

Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

Thank you in advance!

I know I'm not the one with the dog in this fight but-->

This is what I learned in TKD (notice her top too) ...

Pyung ahn 1

[video=youtube_share;8oR8a_VoimU]http://youtu.be/8oR8a_VoimU[/video]

This is Shotokan

Heian 1

 

[shesulsa]

I know I'm not the one with the dog in this fight but-->

This is what I learned in TKD (notice her top too) ...

Pyung ahn 1

[video=youtube_share;8oR8a_VoimU]http://youtu.be/8oR8a_VoimU[/video]

This is Shotokan

Heian 1

ZOMG, they're the same!!!!

 

[clfsean]

In OMA's like Shorin or Shito-ryu, that's actually Pinan 2. Funakoshi switched #1 & #2.

But anyway...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know I'm not the one with the dog in this fight but-->

This is what I learned in TKD (notice her top too) ...

Pyung ahn 1

[video=youtube_share;8oR8a_VoimU]http://youtu.be/8oR8a_VoimU[/video]

This is Shotokan

Heian 1

I'm trying to follow what this has to do with Taegeuk pumsae.

Pyung ahn forms aren't even taekwondo, but tang soo do, and so far as I know, pyung ahn is the Korean pronunciation of Pinan, which is what the Heian kata were called prior to Funakoshi's relabeling, at least that is how I understand it.

 

[clfsean]

Well ... I studied TKD from 1981 until 1991/2 ish actively. I learned those forms. I didn't study TSD.

And pyung-ahn is Korean for Pinan, but #1 & #2 are switched like Shotokan Heians.

Just info...

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[Dirty Dog]

Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

Thank you in advance!

I don't think such a claim could be supported. Certainly some KMA use Japanese/Okinawan Kata (I'm thinking of the turtle forms used by some Tang Soo Do/Soo Bak Do programs) but it's equally certain that not all of them are renamed imports.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think such a claim could be supported. Certainly some KMA use Japanese/Okinawan Kata (I'm thinking of the turtle forms used by some Tang Soo Do/Soo Bak Do programs) but it's equally certain that not all of them are renamed imports.

Correct sir, some Korean forms are renamed kata. Some are of Korean creation. The point I've made is that when a Korean form has the same 'A,B,C' movement sequence as an Okinawan kata it will have the same applicaiton.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Correct sir, some Korean forms are renamed kata. Some are of Korean creation. The point I've made is that when a Korean form has the same 'A,B,C' movement sequence as an Okinawan kata it will have the same applicaiton.

Perhaps it would be better to say that it can have the same applications(s).

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Perhaps it would be better to say that it can have the same applications(s).

I don't see an issue to say that it will contain the same applications. Whether an individual wishes to use the application(s) is up to them.

 

[StuartA]

General Choi did very little, if any, training on the makiwara. There are pictures of General Choi's featuring his hands on desks, but his knuckles were not developed with a makiwara. Instead what he used to do was put out cigarettes on his knuckles to give the appearance of having done makiwara work. That is just one example of the many things wrong with your comparison of General Choi to Itosu Sensei.

Was just browsing this thread and came across this. I`m not sure about how much or little he trained on the Dollyo-jang (Makiwara) personally - though there is pictures of his students doing it as standard 'basic' training for everyone.. but I know from those close to him that he was mad (bordering on obsessive) on conditioning work. Apparently, even when travelling he use to wake up those he was with in the morning by pounding walls, posts, columns etc. You can also see him do it, aged 70/80 (I`m not sure) on one of the DVD's about him.

I recall someone who had met him in the mid eighties, saying his hands were like rocks!

I know its not really to do with the thread, but just posted as I don't feel what has been says is fair, or even correct TBH. In fact it seems deliberatly misleading.

Stuart

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Putzing around on YT and saw this as one instructors application.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

two defences against a wrist grab in palgwe 4, followed with an attack.

 

[andyjeffries]

Putzing around on YT and saw this as one instructors application.

This is exactly what I mean though. This is imagining "if you bastardise this movement, and completely obliterate this one, it kinda looks like you can do this". If you do Taegeuk Il Jang correctly (as the Kukkiwon defines it) then it looks nothing like that video. There's no opening of fists in Taegeuk 1 and the movement from the second move to the third is just completely ballsed-up in the wrong direction.

If there is a direct application as the Kukkiwon DVDs show, then I'm all for teaching it, but to change the movements (including opening the hand, circling the wrist, etc) is just then making up your own movements instead of applying Taegeuk 1.

I would never say to another instructor "you can't do that", what they choose to do with their bodies and their students is up to them, but what they are doing is not a part of Kukki-Taekwondo and they should certainly never sell it as "let me show you the hidden applications of Taegeuk poomsae as they came from Karate kata". I can see and agree with someone saying "look how I can apply the movements of Taegeuk 1 if I just change them a bit, there, isn't that fun?!", but these things aren't interpretations of the Taegeuk movements they are new sequences using some similar movements to Taegeuk 1.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I agree Andy that the 'flow' has been changed i.e. no turn to the left per the form etc. As I mentioned, I was just surfing through YT and came across this video. However, if you take the principle(s) demonstrated from Il Jang i.e. a down block and a straight punch you can see those elements in the video as examples of applications from those specific movements. It is important to note that once the principle of the application has been understood, it may be possible to use this principle in positions outside of what the form demonstrates movement-wise.

All in all though, I personally prefer the movements to mirror the form exactly as the various movements, even small ones can have tremendous meaning. But it was fun just to see some down blocking applications. I'm going to have to get out the camera anyway as I've been wanting to tape our KSD form, I might try to do some various block applications and perhaps touch on this portion of Il Jang as well.

 

[andyjeffries]

Don't get me wrong, I'd be interested to see some forms where the movements exactly as prescribed do other things (without needing to change them at all). I don't believe these are present in Kukki-Taekwondo forms, maybe other arts/forms, but they would be interesting.