Taegue Il Jang application

[Gnarlie]

Whether the hands are represented open or closed or grabbing or not in the pattern isn't that important in my mind, as when trying to apply any movement from a pattern, if you forbid the option of grabbing or pulling you're seriously going to limit the possibilities.

I view the patterns as stylised representations of principles anyway. Really, who low blocks against a kick with a full chamber? It would be quite risky. But the idea in the pattern does get across the concept of protecting the lower quarters of the body in a stylised way.

That said, I have a couple of good applications for the opening of Il Jang where the fists can stay closed.

It works well against an opposing wrist grab to the left hand, leaving a nice turned over elbow and the kidneys as targets for the punch. It also works well as a mid range technique to the side of the neck, bending rhe attacker forward and then punching to the temple or floating ribs. It even lets you cause them to trip in the step through.

Gnarlie

 

[seasoned]

IMO it is all subjective.
We are limited by the way our art was presented to us, and what we expected to get from it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Don't get me wrong, I'd be interested to see some forms where the movements exactly as prescribed do other things (without needing to change them at all). I don't believe these are present in Kukki-Taekwondo forms, maybe other arts/forms, but they would be interesting.

I understand what you're saying Andy. Let me put it another way by asking you a question; if an Okinawan kata contains a movement sequence using a down block, and that movement sequence has an application other than just blocking something, would it not also have the same application if found in a Korean form?

I'm suggesting that it will...or perhaps more appropriately that it might but will add the caveat that it depends on the movements before and after that sequence as well. Will KKW forms flow as easily as Okinawan kata as far as applications? I personally don't think it would in every case, in every movement sequence. But by and large I think the KKW forms are sufficient to contain a wealth of information if it was of interest to the one teaching/learning the forms if the interest was geared towards SD. Admittedly that may well be a small %. But I think that's fine as well.

We are in agreement that changes, for the most part, shouldn't be needed. The only exception I'd add is when taking that principle and using it in a different situation. For example, a movement sequence contains a lock and demonstrates that lock from a certain position. Let's be more specific and say it demonstrates a shoulder lock. Now the kata/form may not demonstrate a take down using that shoulder lock, but taking the principle that kata/form has demonstrated, we can then take it out of the kata/form and use it as a stand alone drill in which we can then further extrapolate further uses such as a take down, transporter, use from an angle not demonstrated specifically in the kata/form etc.

Although I don't know the two guys in the video, this is how I would understand their thought process. I personally wouldn't have called it applications from Il Jang but rather down blocking applications. That may be splitting hairs, but perhaps it would avoid confusion for those looking for more of a specific movement flow to what their doing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Whether the hands are represented open or closed or grabbing or not in the pattern isn't that important in my mind, as when trying to apply any movement from a pattern, if you forbid the option of grabbing or pulling you're seriously going to limit the possibilities.

I view the patterns as stylised representations of principles anyway. Really, who low blocks against a kick with a full chamber? It would be quite risky. But the idea in the pattern does get across the concept of protecting the lower quarters of the body in a stylised way.

That said, I have a couple of good applications for the opening of Il Jang where the fists can stay closed.

It works well against an opposing wrist grab to the left hand, leaving a nice turned over elbow and the kidneys as targets for the punch. It also works well as a mid range technique to the side of the neck, bending rhe attacker forward and then punching to the temple or floating ribs. It even lets you cause them to trip in the step through.

Gnarlie

Yes, the step through imo is a very important part of the sequence. It can add some energy to the punch, if used solely for a punch (as you mentioned to the kidneys, side of neck etc) or a great trip/hip bump if used in combination.

It would be great if a bunch of us could toss up a quick video explaining/demonstrating some of the things we've discussed. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words and a quick video even more. It beats trying to put dynamic steps into word format.

 

[seasoned]

Yes, the step through imo is a very important part of the sequence. It can add some energy to the punch, if used solely for a punch (as you mentioned to the kidneys, side of neck etc) or a great trip/hip bump if used in combination.

The above is every so prevalent in some arts and explains why, in a close in fighting art, we will suddenly step deep into our invisible opponent.

(Side note: This opponent in kata is only invisible to the observer, never the person doing the kata.

This needs to be at lease investigated, even if not excepted as valid, because some believe, that a kata, as with life, is ever changing while remaining static in (solo) practice............

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well ... I studied TKD from 1981 until 1991/2 ish actively. I learned those forms. I didn't study TSD.

And pyung-ahn is Korean for Pinan, but #1 & #2 are switched like Shotokan Heians.

Just info...

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Not sure what federation/style of TKD you studied, but Kukkiwon taekwondo hasn't used pyung ahn hyung for at least the past four decades. And so far as I know, pyung ahn forms are not reworked forms; they are pinan kata with Korean pronunciation. In Shotokan, Funakoshi changed the names of the Pinan kata to Heian kata to make it more 'Japanese' so that he could get it into the educational system. He also changed the kanji for 'karate' from one that meant China hand to the current 'empty hand' kanji.

While they may have been practiced in Kwan era taekwondo and may still be practiced in some taekwondo schools, they are not taekwondo forms; they were not created by any of the TKD founders, regardless of which federation. These are karate kata.

In any case, the assertion of reworked Shotokan forms was made about the Taegeuk pumsae, the first of which is discussed in this thread, which is why I wondered what this had to do with the subject.

 

[miguksaram]

ZOMG, they're the same!!!!

Yes, because they are MDKTSD forms, which is directly based from Okinawa forms. These are not Taeguk forms.

 

[miguksaram]

Well ... I studied TKD from 1981 until 1991/2 ish actively. I learned those forms. I didn't study TSD.

And pyung-ahn is Korean for Pinan, but #1 & #2 are switched like Shotokan Heians.

Just info...

My guess is that your instructor was from Moo Duk Kwan-Taekwondo family or has some roots in Moo Duk Kwan. Why he did not teach Palgue or Taeguk is anyone's guess.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My guess is that your instructor was from Moo Duk Kwan-Taekwondo family or has some roots in Moo Duk Kwan. Why he did not teach Palgue or Taeguk is anyone's guess.

His teacher probably didn't feel like changing and taught him the same form set, and he saw no reason to change, so he taught the same form set.

Nothing inherently wrong with that; Pyung ahn hyung are cool forms. But from an organizational standpoint, it does create some confusion when one moves beyond the dojang level.

 

[miguksaram]

His teacher probably didn't feel like changing and taught him the same form set, and he saw no reason to change, so he taught the same form set.

Nothing inherently wrong with that; Pyung ahn hyung are cool forms. But from an organizational standpoint, it does create some confusion when one moves beyond the dojang level.

Agreed. I learned them when I was in TSD. I have forgotten them since, but then, when learning the Shototkan forms, I had flashbacks of them. Generally speaking I love all the different forms from different sects of the Korean arts. So while some people may think that I am anti-anything not KKW, that is far from the truth.

 

[Jaeimseu]

His teacher probably didn't feel like changing and taught him the same form set, and he saw no reason to change, so he taught the same form set.

Nothing inherently wrong with that; Pyung ahn hyung are cool forms. But from an organizational standpoint, it does create some confusion when one moves beyond the dojang level.

This leads back to the question "What is Taekwondo?" If taekwondo is an umbrella term, then ok, but different people mean different things when they say taekwondo.
It's like food in different countries. An American coming to Korea and ordering pizza might be in for a surprise when they get a pie with sweet potatoes, corn, mayo, and mustard. It's called pizza, but it's like no pizza they've ever seen before.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This leads back to the question "What is Taekwondo?" If taekwondo is an umbrella term, then ok, but different people mean different things when they say taekwondo.

While it is a fair question and could be interesting to discuss, I am not offering an answer to nor entertaining the topic. It has been entertained before and always results in drama, sniping, and locked threads.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan

His teacher probably didn't feel like changing and taught him the same form set, and he saw no reason to change, so he taught the same form set.

Nothing inherently wrong with that; Pyung ahn hyung are cool forms. But from an organizational standpoint, it does create some confusion when one moves beyond the dojang level.

This leads back to the question "What is Taekwondo?" If taekwondo is an umbrella term, then ok, but different people mean different things when they say taekwondo.
It's like food in different countries. An American coming to Korea and ordering pizza might be in for a surprise when they get a pie with sweet potatoes, corn, mayo, and mustard. It's called pizza, but it's like no pizza they've ever seen before.

This kind of makes TKD unique in the martial arts. Why did one (or more) GM stick with a particular set of forms and another (or group) develop a new set? What was their motivation? What was their vision? Perhaps much of it has too do with the varied background of the TKD pioneers themselves. Although TKD can be generally said to come from Shotokan karate, this isn't true all the way around. Some early pioneers had training that differed. Yet this training was brought into the mix as well. Look at the names used by the original arts i.e. Kwon Bup, Kong Soo Do, Tang Soo Do etc.

This really puts TKD as a whole on a pretty cool level. It can be sport. It can be a hobby. It can be SD. It can stick predominately as a striking art. It can have locks, throws etc. Very interesting.

 

[Jaeimseu]

While it is a fair question and could be interesting to discuss, I am not offering an answer to nor entertaining the topic. It has been entertained before and always results in drama, sniping, and locked threads.

I agree with you completely.

 

[dancingalone]

This kind of makes TKD unique in the martial arts. Why did one (or more) GM stick with a particular set of forms and another (or group) develop a new set? What was their motivation? What was their vision?

I don't think there's that much in-depth reasoning behind it. I think it just simply represents one's organizational membership or the affiliation/membership at the time the curriculum was codified.

There are some schools in the US that call themselves Moo Duk Kwan TKD or Chung Do Kwan TKD without current ties to the KKW. They use the karate forms.

There are some ATA offshoots from both before and after the ATA started using their own unique Songahm forms. Almost all of them use a variation of the Chang Hon patterns since that is what the ATA used.

And then there's some non-affiliated schools that use the Palgwe or Taegeuk series. Probably these people have relatively recent ties to the KKW but have broken off at some point. Ralph Mcpherson's group comes to mind.

Perhaps much of it has too do with the varied background of the TKD pioneers themselves. Although TKD can be generally said to come from Shotokan karate, this isn't true all the way around. Some early pioneers had training that differed. Yet this training was brought into the mix as well. Look at the names used by the original arts i.e. Kwon Bup, Kong Soo Do, Tang Soo Do etc.

Yes. I can think of two small groups that use the karate forms AND the Kwon Bup forms like Do Ju San, etc. Interesting mixes.

 

[dancingalone]

And so far as I know, pyung ahn forms are not reworked forms; they are pinan kata with Korean pronunciation.

They are not identical to the pinan kata as performed by the various Shorin-ryu groups. Examples of changes include substitutions of side kicks for front kicks, differing knifehand chambers, etc. Whether this fits anyone's definition of 'reworking' or not, I think unimportant, but certainly these adaptions do have rather dramatic implications in my opinion when analysing closely related applications to the movements.

Some of these changes were made within Shotokan karate and the Koreans picked up by way of Japan. It should also be noted that there's no universal way of running the Pinan kata. There is variation in them even across the different Shorin-ryu and Okinawan Kenpo groups.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't think there's that much in-depth reasoning behind it. I think it just simply represents one's organizational membership or the affiliation/membership at the time the curriculum was codified.

When I was training at a KKW school in college the instructor was a Korean who was very into WTF competition, was an international referee, etc. But besides the Taeguk poomse he also taught the Chang Hun tul. When one of the students asked why he taught the ITF patterns he said, "Better patterns," and left it at that. His affiliation with the KKW (and, at the time, USTU) didn't enter in to him teaching additional patterns.

Interestingly, the instructor was also from the Ji Do Kwan, which has had a bit of a history of rivalry with the Oh Do Kwan. But that didn't stop him from using Gen. Choi's patterns.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When I was training at a KKW school in college the instructor was a Korean who was very into WTF competition, was an international referee, etc. But besides the Taeguk poomse he also taught the Chang Hun tul. When one of the students asked why he taught the ITF patterns he said, "Better patterns," and left it at that. His affiliation with the KKW (and, at the time, USTU) didn't enter in to him teaching additional patterns.

Interestingly, the instructor was also from the Ji Do Kwan, which has had a bit of a history of rivalry with the Oh Do Kwan. But that didn't stop him from using Gen. Choi's patterns.

Pax,

Chris

Personally, I like the Chang Hon tul that I have seen. Not overly familiar with them, but whenever you or another ITF-er posts video of them, I like what I see.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

When I was training at a KKW school in college the instructor was a Korean who was very into WTF competition, was an international referee, etc. But besides the Taeguk poomse he also taught the Chang Hun tul. When one of the students asked why he taught the ITF patterns he said, "Better patterns," and left it at that. His affiliation with the KKW (and, at the time, USTU) didn't enter in to him teaching additional patterns.

Interestingly, the instructor was also from the Ji Do Kwan, which has had a bit of a history of rivalry with the Oh Do Kwan. But that didn't stop him from using Gen. Choi's patterns.

Pax,

Chris

I like this, no ego or politics preventing the use of something he felt was better for his students. Thumbs up.

 

[dancingalone]

When I was training at a KKW school in college the instructor was a Korean who was very into WTF competition, was an international referee, etc. But besides the Taeguk poomse he also taught the Chang Hun tul. When one of the students asked why he taught the ITF patterns he said, "Better patterns," and left it at that. His affiliation with the KKW (and, at the time, USTU) didn't enter in to him teaching additional patterns.

Interestingly, the instructor was also from the Ji Do Kwan, which has had a bit of a history of rivalry with the Oh Do Kwan. But that didn't stop him from using Gen. Choi's patterns.

Pax,

Chris

Chris, have you ever heard of the Unified TKD group? Some years ago I made the acquaintance of a guy that belongs to the organization. Apparently they created some forms using stylistic choices from BOTH the KKW and ITF forms, supposedly as a bridge for the two groups to work together and perhaps eventually unify.

I thought the forms were meh, but the idea was interesting.