New to Wing Chun

[geezer]

Teacher(s) and unfortunately I don't. If I had the money I'd make the trips but not possible at this moment.

Believe it or not, this whole conversation has actually been helpful to me in a funny way. The last couple of weeks I've been debating on whether or not to go to an out of state seminar with my old Escrima instructor. I actually made instructor rank under him back in the 80s, but eventually had to stop training. I went back to a seminar with him a few years back and since then have been working out regularly with some other guys who are very good, but in a different. style of FMA. I also teach a bit of Escrima, but haven't been back to get checked out by my old instructor. I keep telling myself that I have a dozen of his DVDs and I practice regularly with other guys who are really good... so I don't need to bust my bank account, miss work, make excuses to my wife, and go out of state for a weekend of seminars and a private lesson or two.

No, I don't need to do that. I can train on my own right? WRONG. After weeks of debating with myself, I've just made up my mind... thanks in part to this thread. I'm going to the seminar. Maybe some of you will be there for the Wing Tzun portion of the instruction?

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Let's please try to recall that MartialTalk, even in the Wing Chun forum, is supposed to be "dedicated to the Polite and Professional exploration" of the martial arts. (It's right up there in the top banner.)

Avoid the personal shots, and stick to the issues, rather than dropping into name calling and the like. Otherwise, more formal action will become necessary.

 

[MJS]

Actually, much like that other thread, this one is, at this stage, pretty pointless. Maybe what we should do, seeing that these threads never produce anything of quality, is to lock them right away, with a note to use the search feature. I mean, whats the point? I've yet to see anything productive out of these types of threads. The only thing they produce is a bunch of reported posts for the non-involved mods to deal with.

You have 2 sides....1 that feels that video training is good, 1 that thinks it sucks. Neither side wants to budge.

I still stand by what I've said....nothing will replace a live teacher. If someone doesnt have the means to train or has other personal issues, again, my suggestion is to put training on the backburner, and get your priorities in order. This is not directed at any one person in this thread, but to anyone thats considering video learning. As a reference tool, yeah, dvds are great. Sole learning...they suck. No dvd or tape is that good that it's going to give all the same info that a live teacher will. All you're doing is mimicking, at best, the movements.

People want to make money, so what better way to do it, than with video training, that'll supposedly teach you an art. What these teachers never tell you, is that you're only getting a piece of the puzzle. Do you honestly think that these teachers will tell you this? Of course not, because they want to make $$$$$.

 

[Nabakatsu]

I wish I was coming out for the wing tzun seminar!
We have Sifu Micheal Casey coming out sometime in september though, so I can hold tight!

 

[WC_lun]

Would you trust a doctor that taught himself or learned from books or video tapes only? Would you trust a doctor that was trained by someone who was not a doctor? Would you let such a doctor reccomend treatment for you or even perform surgery on you? If you are practicing martial arts and you are teaching yourself, you are trusting your training to a beginner that does not have the experience to train anyone. Your health could be what you are gambling. Ever heard the saying about lawyers that represent themselves? Very similiar case here. There really is no substititure for training with a qualified instructor. Period.

I've heard the arguement that some guy somewhere made the martial systems we have today. If he can do it, so can I! That just isn't true. The fellows that designed the true combat systems, such as Wing Chun, learned what worked and didn't work from generations of military men and kung fu fighters. Those men in turn, learned what worked from real combat. Not sporting events, but real combat. If they didn't learn what worked, they didn't survive to teach anyone. These men were not learning second hand and they were not dealing in theorycraft.

Today we are fortunate in that we have the experience of so many generations of fighting men and the relative easy access to information to find those men. However, it is also no longer acceptable to challenge an instructor to find out if they really understand fighting. Today there are many, many instructors that are pretenders. These instructors are never tested and they get so good at living the fantasy they don't even know that what they do is not based on reality. Believing you can learn to be a real martial artist from DVDs, books, and limited interaction with others is just not living in the real world.

My advice is wait until you can find a real teacher. Save your money instead of buying training tools that won't work. Eventually you will be in a place where you will be able to learn and there will be a teacher there willing to teach you.

 

[matsu]

i said i wasnt going to do this but i can help myself...

when you first posted you asked for help and as far i saw, you got lots of help and offers and advice. you came acros,to me, far from respectful and humble, and whined a lot ...ahell of alot, about circumstances and yet you got more offers of help.
then because you were being told stuff you didnt like,you got disrespectful and aggressive,......thats where you got into a sticky place with the majority of guys on here.
this might be a pointless exercise but i,m stoopid enough to reply lol.
let me re-iterate. i have no problem with you self training and you have my grudging respect for your perserverence.i have a minor issue with you spouting knowledge and how wellll your doing in wing chun when you have never experienced it first hand at a genuine club with experienced practioners.so you dont eally know if you are doing well because you have no real experience in real wing chun.the guys you train with might have been taught by someones second cousins hamster who did wing chun for a few yrs but thats not good enough.
i am not picking on you, i have no issue with you.i wish you well in your training pursuits and you might be a real superman with scary natural talents who is the second coming of ip man ready to reunite the far and wide scattered warring factions of the wing chuntzutsun tribes
but i have a real problem with some of the rubbish you have been verbalising as if you know better than the rest of us.
you say,and ill quote
Because I pay attention to the minor minor details. I grab new concepts about the form as it slowly builds together into a better SNT. It's constantly improving from when I copied the movements,
-again from books vids and online-there are now new concepts about the form,its the same as its always (been depending on which lineage) you will need some guidence from a sifu-i can teach a beginner the form but i still need my sifu to perfect it
you-
do not care about being respected. One of the martial art maxims is to be humble. I do have a problem with people treating me like an idiot. Like I said, I may suck at Wing Chun, but I am not a moron. You don't know me.
and
You can't just say something about somebody else and turn out to be true. You have no way to prove it and these posts aren't going to help you b/c you don't know me.

you have said this and i agree and in the same way you cannot know or read people online-there is no afflection of tone no accent so volume or speed of what has been said and unless you are a "superbeing" you cannot read people online.

you said
Also want to add that what we may do differently is the research. I'm constantly watching seminars, reading articles, I just simply have more information than you do. That's not my fault that you did not supplement your training which is what this material does. You have a sifu, +1 years ahead of me in an actual class and I turn out to do the form better than you do lol.

omg did you just say that...c'mooooooon, i thought you could read people online??? what am i thinking now? yep you know it baby!
how do you know you have more info than i do? please.... i have the internet i have books dvds i am an avid collector of my interests.. do you have my sifus dvds? i have all this stuff the same as you AND i have my sifu. i train 6 hours per week at my club plus my own training with a partner and on my dummy.
and yes i will bow down to your greatness and you must do the form better than i and you surely can kick my ars
.........because you are a superbeing alworldly with untold riches due to your many psychic powers and bruce lee like MA talents.
mmmm we digress.......
all the guys have said on here constantly to you and the OP of the this thread which you have ruined by the way with your incessent diatribe
is that you need a good sifu to be good at wing chun.
then you can self train and use other resources to perfect what you are being taught, you then need someone who knows what they are doing to then adjust correct and give feedback on your progress and then you go away and work it again.
please listen, this is not a withchunt gainst you, we are trying to help you.
and as far as i can tell we have tried and even wished you the best ofluck with your pursuit
and it has been my pleasure just communicating with the messiah
thank you for gracing my life with your touch
matsu

 

[wushuguy]

Believe it or not, this whole conversation has actually been helpful to me in a funny way. The last couple of weeks I've been debating on whether or not to go to an out of state seminar with my old Escrima instructor. I actually made instructor rank under him back in the 80s, but eventually had to stop training. I went back to a seminar with him a few years back and since then have been working out regularly with some other guys who are very good, but in a different. style of FMA. I also teach a bit of Escrima, but haven't been back to get checked out by my old instructor. I keep telling myself that I have a dozen of his DVDs and I practice regularly with other guys who are really good... so I don't need to bust my bank account, miss work, make excuses to my wife, and go out of state for a weekend of seminars and a private lesson or two.

No, I don't need to do that. I can train on my own right? WRONG. After weeks of debating with myself, I've just made up my mind... thanks in part to this thread. I'm going to the seminar. Maybe some of you will be there for the Wing Tzun portion of the instruction?

it reminds me why even a sifu needs to go back to his sifu for more instruction at least once in a while for correction and improvement. While we always learn and even can manage to "teach ourself" a thing or two, it's still much better to learn first hand from those with more experience than grope around hoping to find it on our own. hope you have a good time at the seminar

 

[zepedawingchun]

This will be my last post in this thread, we've beaten this dead horse until it's only skin and bones laying in the dirt.

I want to thank in particular Geezer, MJS, Nabakatsu, matsu, and Grenadier for giving support to a very touchy subject, and trying to make the poor kid understand the error in his belief. I know you guys understand what I was trying to make him understand.

To coffeerox, I'm sorry if you feel persecuted and disrespected, that was not my intent in engaging in this discussion. But you have to understand, there are to many people out there trying to practice or teach Wing Chun who are self taught, have only had a lesson or two, or none at all and trying to pass themselves off as Sifus, teaching people a load of crap. I have 27 years Wing Chun experience (38 year martial arts in all), teach class three times a week, train 2 or 3 days a week, plus continue to visit my Sifu 6 or 7 times a year (he's 150 miles away) for seminars, workshops, instructor training, etc. I'm tired of meeting people who berate Wing Chun saying it's a worthless art because they trained for a short time or was ripped off by some ******* that never really trained in Wing Chun.

So please, please, don't train on your own or train using dvd's video tapes, and books. Find a qualified sifu, train with Geezer, train with a live qualified sifu, even if it's just once a week, or once every 2 weeks. I'm sure someone would be willing to do something about tuition, pay by the class instead of monthly, something. At the very least you'll be under the guidance of a real sifu who can fix things before they go too wrong. Then you'll be surprised how much faster you'll progress. With all your Superman abilities it will be much easy.

Good luck and I wish you the best.

 

[matsu]

I was not going to get involved in this thread but am pissed off at how many people can comment on a thread just to moan and argue like a bunch of old women when i have been waiting for a day for someone to comment on my thread and give me alittle bit of advice about the question i posted. I thought thats why we were here to help eachother out.

rion. we are not bitching and moaning, believe it or not we are trying to help a misguided soul find his path back to enlightenment!

and i have posted on your thread.i believe i was the first-did you look at the website? did you know they do a wallbag dvd?

i post very little on a lot of threads as i feel i am unable to give valuable advice with my relative experience in wing chun.
(i am a wing chun student of just over two yrs and my progress has been slow(imo) but good.and i am happy with my progress.
i did two styles of karate for a total of 9 yrs before that was stopped only by injuries that made it un viable to continue the high kicking and impacting dynamics on my hips and lower back.)

so i post only if i feel i am able to really help,or to give a different opinion that might help.....but what i have learnt on here is that despite differences of lineage and opinions i have always been able to enjoy the debates and advice help and sincere attempts to share and progress this great style despite the fact we have never met each other.
please dont judge this forum based on this thread,you would miss out on so much goodstuff if you did that.
matsu

 

[IrishMonk]

Coffeerox... If I was you I'd post some videos of your progress. At best, you will silence the nay sayers... and at the very least you would get feedback on your form etc that could be helpful to you...

 

[coffeerox]

Coffeerox... If I was you I'd post some videos of your progress. At best, you will silence the nay sayers... and at the very least you would get feedback on your form etc that could be helpful to you...

I wish I could but I don't have a cam. I was going to buy one of those Microsoft LifeCam's but financially things took a turn for the worse a few months back. I don't even think I'll be able to come here after next week b/c I'll lose my internet.

 

[Tanaka]

I do not do Chinese Martial arts, but I have background of self training and teacher training. My theory is... Self training itself is not bad. It's the fact that it's not for everybody. Some people can self teach themselves better than others. I grew up self teaching myself about computers. When I finally got into classes for computers. I was lightyears ahead of all the other students, and not far from advanced levels.
Now back to martial arts. I self taught myself martial arts for awhile, before I actually got under a legit teacher. By the time I came into an actual dojo, once again I was lightyears ahead of the other beginners. And during sparring I easily put them away, and displayed beyond white belt level of technique.(I was a very dangerous white belt :ultracool). Here is the kicker though. There was holes that were missing that needed to be filled. These holes were pretty much basics, but here is another kicker. It did not take me long to plug these holes. I imagine it only took weeks upon my teacher teaching me and reminding me during sparring. Now here is what I learned. I saw that in a very short amount of time my skills and technique increased EXTREMELY fast(Training in the Dojo compared to self training). To the point that I surprise myself and cannot believe what I've done. It turns out my ability to self teach myself to such a good extent was due to my ability to LEARN extremely well and fast. So I have concluded that by self teaching you're not going to improve as fast as you would if you were actually being taught, but self teaching did not really make bad habits that were hard to break(Unless you're stubborn and not open minded).
The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training.

Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.

 

[mook jong man]

I do not do Chinese Martial arts, but I have background of self training and teacher training. My theory is... Self training itself is not bad. It's the fact that it's not for everybody. Some people can self teach themselves better than others. I grew up self teaching myself about computers. When I finally got into classes for computers. I was lightyears ahead of all the other students, and not far from advanced levels.
Now back to martial arts. I self taught myself martial arts for awhile, before I actually got under a legit teacher. By the time I came into an actual dojo, once again I was lightyears ahead of the other beginners. And during sparring I easily put them away, and displayed beyond white belt level of technique.(I was a very dangerous white belt :ultracool). Here is the kicker though. There was holes that were missing that needed to be filled. These holes were pretty much basics, but here is another kicker. It did not take me long to plug these holes. I imagine it only took weeks upon my teacher teaching me and reminding me during sparring. Now here is what I learned. I saw that in a very short amount of time my skills and technique increased EXTREMELY fast(Training in the Dojo compared to self training). To the point that I surprise myself and cannot believe what I've done. It turns out my ability to self teach myself to such a good extent was due to my ability to LEARN extremely well and fast. So I have concluded that by self teaching you're not going to improve as fast as you would if you were actually being taught, but self teaching did not really make bad habits that were hard to break(Unless you're stubborn and not open minded).
The bad thing of self teaching is(depending on the person), you can end up training yourself for a very long long time. And still find yourself at a white belt level, when you find legit training.

Now to relate to the argument of this thread. Do not be infuriated with Coffeerox. He is free to self train as this is a free world. He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true). So he is obviously not promoting self teaching, or encouraging others to self teach themselves. But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible. Or do not expect to be taken serious(until proving yourself). Because it's not fair to say you're representing an art, when you have no official teaching from someone in that art.

Give me a bloody break , massive volumes could be written on the subject of Chi Sau alone .

Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught by one.
Wing Chun is a system in which precision counts , a fraction of an inch out of position means the difference between being hit and not being hit.
Things like " Forward Force " can't be seen on a video , things like the
internal contraction Tei Gong can't be seen on a video.

There is a **** load more to it than just copying the external movements , just like an iceberg most of it is underneath the surface.

In 1989 I first started learning Wing Chun and began the process of learning Chi Sau , I say learning , because to this day I am still learning it.
My best student will still get the odd hit in occasionally , anybody who's truthful about training knows **** happens.

Each time I teach or train I hope to make some minor improvement both in physical technique and my level of understanding.

In Wing Chun you learn a bit from your classmates , your seniors , from trial and error and of course from your Sifu.

I can only imagine that trying to teach yourself would be like trying to search for a needle in a hay stack or find an answer to a question when you don't even know what the question is .

Unfortunately there are about 10 ways to do a technique wrong and only one way to do it right in Wing Chun.

It is insulting in the extreme to believe that people think they can learn a system such as Wing Chun off Youtube or from books , videos etc.

Sure you can ape the movements or pull off a reasonable facsimile of a technique , but it will never be the same as that of someone taught by a qualified Master , someone who has put in the hard yards in terms of sweat and black eyes , bloody noses , busted lips , concussions etc over periods of years.

I meet these YouTube practitioners all the time at the Rugby oval where I teach one of my private students , it seems to be a modern phenomenon like Facebook and Myspace.

I get sick of them interrupting the lesson and wasting my time so I use them as " Fresh Meat " for my student , he doesn't hurt them , but only controls them .

I actually tell the You Tube trained individual to try and hit my student , they struggle away trying to fire off shots at him , he just redirects the attempted hits and keeps rolling.

Then after a brief time the You Tube person is completely fatigued and breathing heavily , bent at the waist and holding themselves up hands on knees , because my student has learned to correctly transfer his body weight through his arms and worn the poor sucker out.
You can't learn this from videos , it has to be felt.

I offer to teach these people and believe me I only charge a small amount , less than half the amount charged by a personal trainer in these parts.

Some say yes and you never see them again , or they come up with excuses as to why they can't train at the moment.
I believe what happens is that they are confronted by their own short comings and the shot to the ego is too much.

Their delusions of grandeur are shattered , when they realise just how much how much bloody hard work it takes just to become adequate in this system.


Of course those of us who have been trained in genuine Wing Chun / Wing Tsun academies are immune to these blows to the ego , as we came up through the ranks we were regularly used as " Fresh Meat " and " Human Punching Bags " by senior instructors and higher grades.

Any superiority complex you might have had was quickly beaten out of you , this might seem old school and brutal and probably wouldn't fly in todays world of " I think I will sue because my coffee was too hot " society .

But the thing was it worked , it really sorted out the wankers from the people who were really serious about learning , because usually the wankers left as they realised they weren't the supreme demi gods they thought they were.

Their delusions of grandeur are shattered , when they realise just how much how much bloody hard work it takes just to become adequate in this system.

I really fear for the future of Wing Chun and martial arts in general , are future generations destined to be taught by Internet Sifu's and Senseis.
People who's only connection to the martial art they purport to be teaching is through You Tube videos , books etc.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Well said mook, thanks for such a great response.

 

[Tanaka]

Give me a bloody break , massive volumes could be written on the subject of Chi Sau alone .

Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught by one.
Wing Chun is a system in which precision counts , a fraction of an inch out of position means the difference between being hit and not being hit.
Things like " Forward Force " can't be seen on a video , things like the
internal contraction Tei Gong can't be seen on a video.

..................

I do not think you have read my opinion fully. You seem to have taken that "I want people to self teach themselves" from my opinion. When that is not what I said.

I believe some of what I have already said will help here.


"He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true)."


"But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible."


The problem I have with statements like these
"Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught by one."

Is that in reality the only way for a human being to pick up information are through 5 senses(so far). In the video you use sight and hearing. This is how you're learning. In the school. What are you using? Essentially the same senses, but with an added touching.(Maybe smell&taste?) Now the medium of which the information is traveling to your senses is different of course. The "personal" medium of the school is a better atmosphere. Because it is one that you can communicate back with and receive a quick response. Asking question is a good way to increase learning, and videos are lacking this ability. BUT the original way you're learning your lessons in class is having your teacher demonstrate it in front of you. That is how you FIRST learn, and if that is not done FIRST. Then the other things that help improve learning the technique will fail.
The video has this demonstration that teaches you. But the reason why it is not as proficient as having a teacher, is due to a couple reasons.
1)You cannot ask questions, and if you can it makes it harder for the teacher since hes not there.
2)You cannot have teacher perform technique on you

These come after the original lesson from teacher(Which is the demonstration using sight and hearing)
If you have a teacher who is good at teaching through a video tape medium. I believe your absolute statements of "You absolutely cannot" are wrong.

Please don't misunderstand me for saying that you will be proficient in the art by self teaching. But I disagree(based on my own experience). That nothing can be learned on your own.

Also keep in mind another one of my premise.
"Some people can self teach themselves better than others."

 

[mook jong man]

I do not think you have read my opinion fully. You seem to have taken that "I want people to self teach themselves" from my opinion. When that is not what I said.

I believe some of what I have already said will help here.


"He seems to realize that he needs a teacher(which is true), and that it's better to have a teacher(which is true)."


"But to say or act as if self training is completely useless(is not true). But to be proficient, you definitely need to get a teacher as soon as possible."


The problem I have with statements like these
"Wing Chun is not just a kicking / punching , striking art we actually learn through the process of Chi Sau how to manipulate a human beings balance.

This is something that cannot be learned from books or videos , you need to experience it and be on the recieving end of it from an experienced qualified Master to understand it or at least those instructors taught by one."

Is that in reality the only way for a human being to pick up information are through 5 senses(so far). In the video you use sight and hearing. This is how you're learning. In the school. What are you using? Essentially the same senses, but with an added touching.(Maybe smell&taste?) Now the medium of which the information is traveling to your senses is different of course. The "personal" medium of the school is a better atmosphere. Because it is one that you can communicate back with and receive a quick response. Asking question is a good way to increase learning, and videos are lacking this ability. BUT the original way you're learning your lessons in class is having your teacher demonstrate it in front of you. That is how you FIRST learn, and if that is not done FIRST. Then the other things that help improve learning the technique will fail.
The video has this demonstration that teaches you. But the reason why it is not as proficient as having a teacher, is due to a couple reasons.
1)You cannot ask questions, and if you can it makes it harder for the teacher since hes not there.
2)You cannot have teacher perform technique on you

These come after the original lesson from teacher(Which is the demonstration using sight and hearing)
If you have a teacher who is good at teaching through a video tape medium. I believe your absolute statements of "You absolutely cannot" are wrong.

Please don't misunderstand me for saying that you will be proficient in the art by self teaching. But I disagree(based on my own experience). That nothing can be learned on your own.

Also keep in mind another one of my premise.
"Some people can self teach themselves better than others."

I'm sorry but you have zero understanding of Chi Sau , which is one of the cornerstones of the Wing Chun system.

It ABSOLUTELY can't be learned through video , books , irnternet etc.

It NEEDS HANDS ON INSTRUCTION from a genuine qualified master or instructors under the tutelage of a genuine qualified master.

Not too mention getting hit a few million times by people with all different body shapes , sizes and different types of energy.
Then making the necessary micro adjustments so that you are not hit in the future.

Even with all these things it can still be bloody hard , so please don't give me this crap about learning off a friggin video.

You learn alright , you learn when your instructor's palm strike keeps thudding into your chest or why his Tan Sau keeps ending up around your ear lobes.

 

[coffeerox]

mook jong man: I think the reason why I won't fully agree is because the only thing absent from online lessons is feel and on-the-fly correction.

As long as the teacher is giving good instruction, the student should be able to use what he has learned with a partner and then practice until they understand what is being told and shown on the video.

There's lots of factors to self-training that you most-likely are not aware of. You need to be able to absorb new information fairly quickly. You must be able to research and cross-reference many things since information is given to you only one time and sometimes, clarification is unavailable and assistance is required. Self-trainers must be more dedicated than a normal person because they have to figure it out the hard way. By doing, making mistakes, etc.

You see, this is quite a complex process already and you can't expect average, everyday people to come out of this undertaking as good as a student who has trained with you for years.

Also take into account the completeness of online lessons. Doing it yourself requires in-depth information that you don't even get in class. The online Sifu must cover everything related to that lesson, as well as come up with a lesson plan suitable for online learning. This is one part that I feel is lacking with online lessons. Well, there's really only 1 online curriculum out there (Master Wong) and he doesn't teach all of the names of the techniques and he's seriously lacking instruction on body structure. He only recently began to upload the how-to's on the form from his lineage.

Like Tanaka, I learned computers by myself as well, and a lot of that is due to research and actual experience working with a computer's hardware and software. I'm not certified, but I can build my own computer with whatever specs I want, features, you name it, I can do it. I can also setup my own network with appropriate security. To many, this is a very complex thing that they only trust to professionals. Are you going to tell me I can't do this?

About the bad practitioners, well there may be some factors to it that you may not have considered. Have you asked how far they've gone in their lessons? Are you doing Chi Sao with them when they have not gotten to that point, or have had a partner to practice Chi Sao with? Do they train with a partner, or do they go solo? Next time, before you just drop Chi Sao on them, go over the basics by asking some questions and asking them to demonstrate the basics (such as form) You're a teacher right? You should be able to gauge where their skill level is and simply refuse because they are not at that level yet.

Back to online learning. This is an area that is exploding for many different things, not just martial arts. Many technical schools and universities are offering online courses in which there is no hands on. It's all done via a browser, maybe some videos and a chat channel.

Martial arts online learning is not yet at a level where it's entirely viable to do it with just you and a partner, however, I do not believe it's an impossibility. We just need a guy out there, somewhere, that is able to transmit the entire system in a format that is possible for two practitioners to absorb and practice on their own.

 

[coffeerox]

It ABSOLUTELY can't be learned through video , books , irnternet etc.

I agree with you, however people like Master Wong utilizes punch drills (similar to Lat Sao of WT) that works in aspects from Chi Sao so that you're not totally unfamiliar with it. Lat Sao from WT, is supposed to be an easy to teach drill that makes Chi Sao easier to get into.

 

[mook jong man]

I agree with you, however people like Master Wong utilizes punch drills (similar to Lat Sao of WT) that works in aspects from Chi Sao so that you're not totally unfamiliar with it. Lat Sao from WT, is supposed to be an easy to teach drill that makes Chi Sao easier to get into.

We already have things that make Chi Sau easier to get into , they're called Sil Lum Tao form and single sticking hands.
Thats as easy as it gets I'm afraid.

 

[WC_lun]

None are so blind as those that won't see.

Mook Jon man, everything you said is true, but some won't listen to you, even though it is obvious you have experience behind what you are saying. Let it be. We've said our peace. If it does good and helps someone actually find a teacher and really learn then great. If not, then let them live in thier fantasy.