New guy here, and I do ATA...

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm all for physical fitness. I would like to see even 2nd and 3rd candidates be tested elsewhere than their home dojang under different examiners. This would go a long ways to making the pass/fail rate more honest.

We do this. We are graded in town by a panel of 7th dans, who basically dont know you from a bar of soap. We also cant spar anyone at grading who trains in our regular class. I feel this adds some credibility to a 'pass'.

 

[auxiliary]

I'm all for physical fitness. I would like to see even 2nd and 3rd candidates be tested elsewhere than their home dojang under different examiners. This would go a long ways to making the pass/fail rate more honest.

For our schools we do black belt testing twice a year, actually have one coming up on Saturday!

All 8 of our schools get together and do the testing. We rent out a gym and do an entire day of it. We sometimes have guest instructors come from other schools to judge.

This is good because the students are judged by instructors that have never seen them before from other schools.

This works well for us, but not everyone has the ability to have multiple schools or someone come and "guest" judge every time they test.

 

[terryl965]

My students do the exact same test tha adults do. The only difference is the board they break which is equal to their age. If they can complete the test and do so with a good grade, why hold them away from getting their black belt

So you are going to tell me a 7 year old is doing the same type of self defense as an adult, than all I can say is the program is water down and I mean like a flood. No 7 year old could understand the physics behind certain self defense techniques let alone what the law says you can or cannot do. They would have no ideak what lethal force is or what it would meanto kill someone in self defense? No way can you or any instructor tell me the curriculum is the same for a 7 year old as it would be for a thirty year old. I have been in MA for over forty years and that is the most stupid statement I have ever heard from anybody or instructor. Childern cannot physically or emotionally be at the same level as an adult with technique or ability. Hell they could not even understand applications from poomsae,forms or tuls for that matter. I am sure you do not teach pressure points, joint locks to a six year old and say now remember do not try this on your kindergardeners because they could get hurt.

Sometime I wonder when people say stuff like this are they really thinking it though or just trying to make people believe the material is the same. I believe in Junior BB's but junior are not adults.

Sorry if this come's across hard but to say he gives the exact same test except for board breaking than either the adult program is waterdown or the child program is really not the same.

 

[auxiliary]

Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it.

There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages. We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together. We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet. Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children. This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.

For our black belt testing we do a physical portion which is a 2.5 mile run, push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, punches. We also do a written test which covers TKD history, questions, belt meanings, things like that. After that we do a 1 hour work out with all the instructors and testers which is then followed by the actual test. Then they will do sparring, black belt form, board break, and a self-defense of their choice.

That is what I was meaning when I say juniors/adults do the same test.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it.

There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages. We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together. We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet. Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children. This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.

For our black belt testing we do a physical portion which is a 2.5 mile run, push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, punches. We also do a written test which covers TKD history, questions, belt meanings, things like that. After that we do a 1 hour work out with all the instructors and testers which is then followed by the actual test. Then they will do sparring, black belt form, board break, and a self-defense of their choice.

That is what I was meaning when I say juniors/adults do the same test.

So what you are saying is that the test is the same, but the curriculum leading up to that test is different. This probably stills falls into the area that terry was talking about, whereby the curriculum is 'watered down' for the kids as you said "We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet. Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children". Also, I am amazed kids that young can run 2.5 miles, I know many adults who cant do that.

 

[terryl965]

Excuse me, I was talking about the actual test that we do for black belt and not the classes leading up to it.

There is a difference between classes, concepts, and material that we teach the students based on ages. We do try to keep them similar because most of our adult students are also parents of students so by keeping their curriculum similar it helps them to be able to practice at home together. We do cover things with adults that children don't get yet. Personally we have done a lot of hand to hand, hand to knife with an arnis master that we do not even think about covering with the children. This is great for adults but is not used at black belt testing.

For our black belt testing we do a physical portion which is a 2.5 mile run, push ups, sit ups, kicks, combinations, punches. We also do a written test which covers TKD history, questions, belt meanings, things like that. After that we do a 1 hour work out with all the instructors and testers which is then followed by the actual test. Then they will do sparring, black belt form, board break, and a self-defense of their choice.

That is what I was meaning when I say juniors/adults do the same test.

Please tell me where your school is located? I would love to stop by because by your admission the test would not be the same. I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles. I am not trying to be mean but I would love someone to say justonce that the test and curriculum is different for childern and adults. I know mine is amd I consider myself a hardass with physical fitness and self defense but even I know a junior BB is not a adult BB. All my juniors when they reach 15 they start to learn the adult curriculum and re-test for there dan rank at age 17. Yes my child curriculum is waterdown compared to what I teach my adults but for a child it is pretty rough. Let not say apple and oranges are the same, sure they are both fruit but the two are completely different.

 

[Balrog]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd introduce myself. I was searching for something online and came across this forum and after reading a couple of posts thought I'd love to join. I hope I can give some feedback on what the ATA is, does, and operates. Currently I'm a third degree and testing for fourth at world championships in June.

Welcome! Nice to have another ATAer on the forum.

 

[Balrog]

http://ataonline.com/the_ring/standings/tourcurr.asp?vb=B23A&vf=

What does it take for a child, age 1 to 7 years, to achieve 3rd degree black belt in the ATA system?

WARNING - HOT BUTTON PUSHED!! :soapbox:

This is a sore spot with me. It's possible because the kid earned rank as a Tiny Tiger. I firmly believe that our Tigers should NOT earn rank (they won't in my school if I ever start another Tiger program), but should be kept as White Belts until they move into the regular program.

I also personally feel that our age limits need to be restored. IMNSHO, the absolute minimum age for First Degree should be no less than 10. No single digit midget Black Belts; they are simply too young to understand the concepts that accompany the rank. It's not all just punching and kicking.

It's a clash between business practices and teaching martial arts, and when you see seven year old Third Degrees, the business practices won. And that is not a good thing.

 

[Balrog]

OH POOP, full contact stick? That's bad, man, in a good way.
We did stick for a while, we had the eternal giggles in class, but we never got far enough to go tournament (ITA gal here, once upon a time we sprung from the ATA)

Well, the stick is padded and we do wear our sparring gear. Having said that, I judge combat weapons and I have seen some absolutely fantastic moves. One of my favorites was a tremendous head shot that wound up with headgear rolling across the floor. I was looking to see if the head was still in it.

 

[granfire]

Well, the stick is padded and we do wear our sparring gear. Having said that, I judge combat weapons and I have seen some absolutely fantastic moves. One of my favorites was a tremendous head shot that wound up with headgear rolling across the floor. I was looking to see if the head was still in it.

It wasn't delivered by a 60ish lady, was it?

My friend really got into sticks...I preferred not to partner with her
It's awesome fun, I mean, you really don't get the oportunity much to beat up on each other with sticks!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Welcome to MT, Auxiliary. Glad to see your organization get a little more representation here.

Daniel

 

[StudentCarl]

...I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles.

We have a 7 year old blue belt who has trained with the competition team for two years. Last summer we ran a local 5K race before practice. She was 6 and completed the race in just over 26 minutes. Her two older sibs are team members and mom is a runner. When Michigan weather allows, we run at least a couple of miles before practice, so it wasn't new to her.

I understand your point Terry, but how many 6-8 year old kids did you have in HS PE?

We do enough cardio in our school if you do comp. team, and I can't imagine we're the only one. They may be exceptional, but they exist.

I too would like to see some age minimums such as 10 for 1st poom, but it would require school owners to think through how they manage promotions for those kids who start very young.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Please, leave the ATA bashing for other threads, but like I said I am willing to answer any questions you guys may have about it.

From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo). I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.

Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees? Or does it work differently?

Thank you in advance for answering.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

Please tell me where your school is located? I would love to stop by because by your admission the test would not be the same. I also do not believe a 6-8 year old child will run 2.5 miles, I was a high school PE teacher and basketball coach for twenty years and I know for first hand you do not do enough cardio in your school for a child to run 2.5 miles. I am not trying to be mean but I would love someone to say justonce that the test and curriculum is different for childern and adults. I know mine is amd I consider myself a hardass with physical fitness and self defense but even I know a junior BB is not a adult BB. All my juniors when they reach 15 they start to learn the adult curriculum and re-test for there dan rank at age 17. Yes my child curriculum is waterdown compared to what I teach my adults but for a child it is pretty rough. Let not say apple and oranges are the same, sure they are both fruit but the two are completely different.

I would not run 2.6 miles...I would not run 400 meters for that matter. I hate running.
And I suppose if I had to run for TKD I would not do it (besides running is bad for the joints)

 

[terryl965]

We have a 7 year old blue belt who has trained with the competition team for two years. Last summer we ran a local 5K race before practice. She was 6 and completed the race in just over 26 minutes. Her two older sibs are team members and mom is a runner. When Michigan weather allows, we run at least a couple of miles before practice, so it wasn't new to her.

I understand your point Terry, but how many 6-8 year old kids did you have in HS PE?

We do enough cardio in our school if you do comp. team, and I can't imagine we're the only one. They may be exceptional, but they exist.

I too would like to see some age minimums such as 10 for 1st poom, but it would require school owners to think through how they manage promotions for those kids who start very young.

Ok let me clear this up my point is this can a few do it sure but they are the exception not the rule. I cannot see any mature instructor making a 6-8 year old do the same test as the adults except if the adult test in waterdown. I have a few young one's that have been with me since thee age of two and now are 7 and they are barely mid belts. simply because they really do not understand the curriculum of the school. That does not mean they are not nice to have around but my parents understand there is a long waiting period for them to get there.

Hell my own son's who grew up inside a dojaang working out everyday did not have a BB at 6-8 so why would I give one to anybody else working out a few times a week.

Here is another way to look at it most people only absorb about 70-80% of what they are tought, childern is way less. So if a child starts at say 4 and that is when most schools allow them and they do 4 day a week for 45 minutes that equal 3 hours a week times 47 week in a year on average that is only 141 hours x 2 equals 282 hours of training that equates to 6 weeks of work for an adult which ia a probation period with alot of companies so how can a 6-8 year old even phantom what a BB really is? Sorry the number are what I go by and maturity level which in today world is way less than it was years ago. Is there exceptions to the rule sure but they are far in between not the norm.

I will let people do what they want it is there school but do not try and tell me stuff is not waterdown even I have to with the youngers ones we all do....:asian:

 

[clfsean]

From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo). I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.

Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees? Or does it work differently?

Thank you in advance for answering.

Daniel

Don't forget the camo belt!!

http://www.droegesata.com/belts.html

 

[dancingalone]

From what I understand, the ATA has about the same number of belts as most other schools, which seems to be between ten and twelve these days (including white, ildan and dan bo). I know that the ATA has recommended and decided versions of each belt.

Are there two separate tests (one for recommended and one for decided), each with associated testing fees? Or does it work differently?

Thank you in advance for answering.

Daniel

As I understand it, the gup ranks really have no absolute mandate from HQ on how to handle them. Some studios do use them as two separate testing ranks. Some studios use the rec. and dec. ranks as a way of 'flunking' a student without the official embarrassment of a 'no change' - thus, the colored belts that passed are given a decided rank, and the ones that need additional work get a recommended promotion instead. Still other studios only start issuing rec. and dec. ranks after green belt or so.

I believe there is more of a national procedure for rec. and dec. ranks for first and second dans.

 

[StudentCarl]

... I have a few young one's that have been with me since thee age of two and now are 7 and they are barely mid belts. simply because they really do not understand the curriculum of the school.

Terry, I completely agree with you. There's a depth of understanding and maturation, a visible difference in movement and focus as students move through the belts at higher ages--something the younger ones aren't ready for. I'll defer to my seniors on how much of that is coordination, life experience, that they are still growing and changing so much, or whatever, but I can see it.

My point was that there are kids who can handle some of the physical tasks. I'd add that I haven't seen any that young with the whole maturity package. There are no younger kids that I would want exposed the the full defensive side of the curriculum--they don't have the emotional maturity.

 

[auxiliary]

Again at my school we do not have any 6-7 year olds testing for rank. Most of them are an old 8 or a young 9 at the YOUNGEST. Most of my students testing on Saturday are between 10 and 12. Again, ATA schools are different but that's how we are.

Everyone knows they have to run 2.5 miles. Most students start training on this months before the test. Everyone runs it. We allow students to walk a lap(s) if needed. They are given 50 minutes to run it. We have some students, normally teenagers who are in great shape that finish it in 20 minutes.

We have had very unfit (Fat) people do the testing. They hated it, but they completed it and where so proud of themselves.

If we had a 6 year old test for black belt, which we wouldn't, then they would have to do the entire test. If they are not prepared or cannot complete the entire test...then they don't test.

Ok, now about rank.

ATA has 9 color belts. White, Orange, Yellow, Camo, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red.

There is a Recommended Black belt after red.

ATA rule is that students MUST complete Recommended rank at Brown belt. ATA gives their schools the option to choose if they want to implement recommended ranks before brown belt. At my school we begin recommended at camo belt. There is a testing fee for every rank, recommended and decided. The form will stay the same between the two testings but we change the basics, first time it's basics done in the form, second time it's weapon basics. We also do self-defense on the first testing and then the second testing it's sparring segments. We will do board break at testing also.

Again, every ATA school is different. I know there are bad schools, but ours seems to be doing well.

We are located outside of Atlanta.

 

[dancingalone]

There is a testing fee for every rank, recommended and decided.

Ouch.

We are located outside of Atlanta.

Any Choi Kwang Do schools near you? They also have lots of colored belt ranks.