New fence in Mexico

[Makalakumu]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-561352967665308095&q=Eric+Schlosser&hl=en

I took the time to watch this wonderful series of lectures on video. All of these guys bring up some wonderful points about our agriculture system. This video deserves discussion all by itself.

However, the speech of the Indian woman/scholar, Vandava Shiva, who appears around 36:00, is particularly relevant to this discussion.

I cannot say how many times, in this immigration debate, that I have brought up the point of "Why are the immigrants coming to this country."

Listen to her words. We have reaped what we have sown. And as soon as you understand this, you'll see the sheer irony of building this fence.

Also, listen to Eric Schlosser's speech. He expounds upon Ms. Shiva's points and ties them directly to how they effect the US. He appears around 47:00 minutes.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey

From that post, all arguments you make fall beneath the claim that Chinatown was around before racial discrimination.

Let me rephrase: I did not mean that racial discrimination was not alive and disturbingly common; I meant that it was not considered wrong at the time - it was considered normal. It was, in that sense, a non-issue - something that no one would think about or consider wrong. I was typing quickly and thus was unclear. The word I left out was "social" - as in, it was not considered an issue of importance to society; polite society was racially and economically stratified, and that was the way of the world - no one thought about it, or if they did, it was just the way things were. Only when it became socially acceptable to mix levels of society did discrimination become a social issue instead of a fact of life. Today, in comparison, I find it to be unlikely that anyone would name an area "HispanicTown" because it would be deemed to be politically incorrect... that is, the area might be known as that quietly, but it is unlikely it would be published on maps.

I fail to see how that single unclarity makes the rest of my statement incorrect by default, nor do I see how it makes my grasp of history unclear - only my assumption that others would understand what I meant was in error, not my reasoning. So sorry you could not separate the two.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-561352967665308095&q=Eric+Schlosser&hl=en

I took the time to watch this wonderful series of lectures on video. All of these guys bring up some wonderful points about our agriculture system. This video deserves discussion all by itself.

However, the speech of the Indian woman/scholar, Vandava Shiva, who appears around 36:00, is particularly relevant to this discussion.

I cannot say how many times, in this immigration debate, that I have brought up the point of "Why are the immigrants coming to this country."

Listen to her words. We have reaped what we have sown. And as soon as you understand this, you'll see the sheer irony of building this fence.

Also, listen to Eric Schlosser's speech. He expounds upon Ms. Shiva's points and ties them directly to how they effect the US. He appears around 47:00 minutes.

For those of you with time or bandwith issues, the point of what I posted is to show that everytime that you buy a Big Mac or a bag or Doritos, you help support the system that puts a Mexican farmer out of business...leaving them no choice but to leave their families, risk life and limb, and abandon any sorts of workers rights to come here.

This is why building this fence is so ironic. It's like Wal-mart moving into a small town, putting all of the small businesses out of business and then barring their doors to the newly cheap and desperate labor. Can you see why President Bush, ever the champion of globalization, was initially against this?

 

[michaeledward]

Let me rephrase: I did not mean that racial discrimination was not alive and disturbingly common; I meant that it was not considered wrong at the time - it was considered normal. It was, in that sense, a non-issue - something that no one would think about or consider wrong. I was typing quickly and thus was unclear. The word I left out was "social" - as in, it was not considered an issue of importance to society; polite society was racially and economically stratified, and that was the way of the world - no one thought about it, or if they did, it was just the way things were. Only when it became socially acceptable to mix levels of society did discrimination become a social issue instead of a fact of life. Today, in comparison, I find it to be unlikely that anyone would name an area "HispanicTown" because it would be deemed to be politically incorrect... that is, the area might be known as that quietly, but it is unlikely it would be published on maps.

I fail to see how that single unclarity makes the rest of my statement incorrect by default, nor do I see how it makes my grasp of history unclear - only my assumption that others would understand what I meant was in error, not my reasoning. So sorry you could not separate the two.

Kacey,

Are you really saying that racial discrimination was not considered wrong?

Such an assertion can only be put forth with the confidence of the race doing the discrimination, not the discriminated. Somehow, I think the Chinese that were abused throughout the country didn't feel that everything was A-O-K with racial discrimination.

Even Thomas Jefferson knew slavery was wrong, as the nation was being created. It was a social custom, but it was absolutely wrong, and he knew it. If I am not mistaken, upon his death, he freed many of his slaves.

People know wrong. They may choose, in their arrogance to ignore that it is wrong. And cowards may not have the courage to stand against tradition, but if a tradition is wrong, most people, I believe, in their thoughts know it is wrong.

As for naming of locations, seems to me that for a time 'Spanish Harlem' was a pretty famous neighborhood. That may not be the name they would use today, but every immigrant population got its own neighborhood red-lined from the community.

You have clarified your thoughts. I find they new clarity does not lend itself toward a greater appreciation.

Michael

 

[Fu_Bag]

OK. First off, let me just say that my oppressed Ninja ancestors wouldn't approve of further oppression!!! (ninja joke...sorry, couldn't resist)

Secondly, the fence has yet to be financed and, in all probability, won't be. The legislation is probably toothless.

Here's a link to some interesting "fence" related news:

http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Issues/Immigration/Reconquista/

People can decide for themselves what they want to think.

 

[Don Roley]

Kacey,

Are you really saying that racial discrimination was not considered wrong?

Such an assertion can only be put forth with the confidence of the race doing the discrimination, not the discriminated.

I think that what he means is that society at large did not consider what happened to the Chinese as wrong. They were a racial minority and in the thinking of the time, were not important. He went out of his way to try to show how that would not be the same case in the 21st century but you seem to have missed it.

And we seem to have gotten off of his main point with this discussion about racism.

The Chinese of the 19th century in America did not have a common border with China. If you go to Chinatown now you will find people who speak Chinese and English. If you go to Little Italy you will find people who speak Italian and English. If you go to Armenian sections of some cities your will find people who speak Armenian and English.

But if you go to some sections of cities with large numbers of hispanics you will find folks who discourage their kids from learning English.

This is about as much of a slap in the face for integrating into America as you can get.

Take a look at some of the major problems we have seen in other countries. People have died in conflicts over stupid stuff like ethenticity is a lot of nations. And in a lot of those places the warring sides speak the same language and are citizens of the same country!

So when I look at people who refuse to let their kids learn English and still act as though they were part of Mexico, I have to worry what will happen in a few decades.

I am sure some people will think I am being paranoid. "It can't happen here!" But look at the Winter Olympics in Sarajevo and consider what happend less than a decade later. Who saw that coming?

You look at the troubles in Northern Ireland and ask yourself if the same thing could not happen in the border states of America- the ones that used to be part of Mexico. Not today, not even in this decade. But if people keep raising their kids to think of themselves as Mexicans in America and not Americans with ties to Mexico who the hell knows what will happen?

And the sad thing is, we are helping to cause that sense of alienation with our laws meant to be compassionate. I am with you when you say that we should open the doors to more immigrants. But the laws we have passed to make things better for workers have insured that the first generation from Mexico will never make it under those rules.

It is almost funny to work with an illeagle in a restraunt and realize that even though you cost more to the business, he takes home more pay at the end of the day. In addition to your pay, the business has to lay out cash for those taxes John was talking about that pay for fixing the road, Unemployement insurance, Social Security, Federal taxes, health care and quite a few other things that cost the company money to employ you. Andn that is not even counting the litigation risk from citizens in this lawsuit crazy society. For someone that is not a skilled worker and can't even speak the language it really is not worth it to employ them. So they either send the jobs overseas, get automation or get someone who has no legal status.

In the past, the first generation to America was quite willing to make the sacrifice of being treated as little better than work animals for a chance to live in America. They worked their best and pushed their kids to learn the language and do well in school so as to get the chances they did not. As parents they were willing to take a minial job to insure their kids future.And those kids did take off and did well.

But now, we have insured that the first generation could not find a job if they became citizens. No one will lay out the money they have to hire someone legal for someone who is unskilled and can't speak English. Our sense of compassion has regulated them to permanent second class status. And I am sure they resent all these folks patting themselves on the back at how much they think of the little guy while keeping the dream of working legally from them. And so they never become citizens, and often dream of going back to Mexico. And even if they hav kids and end up dying in America, they pass along that outlook as Mexicans in America to their kids and now we have huge centers of people who think of the Mexican flag as theirs and not the American one.

Oh yeah, I fear that in my lifetime, or that of my children, we will see much of the same problems we see between Shia and Sunni, Irish Protestant and Catholic and Serb and Croat and possibly worse.

I hope I am wrong. I doubt that I am.

 

[Fu_Bag]

In response to Don's post, I'd like to bring the riots in Paris to people's attention. The dynamics aren't exactly the same but the intentional refusal to assimilate into the society they have become a part of is very similar. There are some interesting parallels there.......

Anyone else see any similarities?

 

[Kacey]

Kacey,

Are you really saying that racial discrimination was not considered wrong?

Such an assertion can only be put forth with the confidence of the race doing the discrimination, not the discriminated. Somehow, I think the Chinese that were abused throughout the country didn't feel that everything was A-O-K with racial discrimination.

I never said the Chinese were "A-O-K" with racial discrimination. I said that the controlling culture - that is, the white, well-off people who named the area "Chinatown" after ensuring that Chinese immigrants could live nowhere else, who looked down upon and denigrated all who did not meet their standards of gentility - did not consider their actions in any way to be wrong. They considered themselves better than those they denigrated, as evidenced by their opinions and actions. This is in no way intended to condone their actions, as I find them despicable; it is intended to explicate them.

Even Thomas Jefferson knew slavery was wrong, as the nation was being created. It was a social custom, but it was absolutely wrong, and he knew it. If I am not mistaken, upon his death, he freed many of his slaves.

Yes, he did... he also fathered children on at least one of them. This did not stop him from retaining the services of slaves until after his death - something which causes me to discount his action in freeing them after he, personally, no longer needed their services. Had he truly been concerned about slavery and slaves, he would have freed them before he died, not after. His beliefs were not strong enough for him to stand up for them in life, only in death, and in many ways, I find that worse than not standing up for them at all.

People know wrong. They may choose, in their arrogance to ignore that it is wrong. And cowards may not have the courage to stand against tradition, but if a tradition is wrong, most people, I believe, in their thoughts know it is wrong.

People know what they are taught. Yes, some people rise above the values inculcated in them by their culture, but many follow the path of least resistance - no matter if they agree or not. In some cases it is, indeed, arrogance; in many others it is ignorance mixed liberally with moral cowardice.

As for naming of locations, seems to me that for a time 'Spanish Harlem' was a pretty famous neighborhood. That may not be the name they would use today, but every immigrant population got its own neighborhood red-lined from the community.

And yet, very few such areas remain named for the ethnic group that originally populated it. Were your thesis correct, more such areas would exist, and more would continue to be created. Instead, many ethnic, religious, linguistic, and similar groups assimilate into the American culture as quickly as possible. Only those who are rewarded by our culture for not assimilating - a topic Don Roley has covered sufficiently well that I will not attempt to add to it - remain in geographically and linguistically isolated enclaves.

You have clarified your thoughts. I find they new clarity does not lend itself toward a greater appreciation.

Michael

Your inability to understand - or at least give credence to - the opinions of others only serves to undermine any credence I place on your opinion. I do not have to agree with a person to understand or give credence to their opinions; your total inability (based on your posts over time) show that you are uninterested in any opinion that does not match your own, a loss to yourself that only you can determine. For myself, I would rather agree to
disagree with someone than to denigrate them solely because they disagree with me. I find it broadens my horizons.

 

[Cryozombie]

For those of you with time or bandwith issues, the point of what I posted is to show that everytime that you buy a Big Mac or a bag or Doritos, you help support the system that puts a Mexican farmer out of business...leaving them no choice but to leave their families, risk life and limb, and abandon any sorts of workers rights to come here.

Ok, I'm either stupid or confused, Because I am reading what you are saying is that buy purchasing an american product, Im forcing illegal aliens to come here. If I purchase from McDonalds or Doritos here in Chicago, the farmers in mexico cannot sell their product down there, so they have to come here...

Im scratching my head on that one. I mean... was I buying a mexican hamburger or tortilla chip from a farmer in mexico, and stopped, because McDonalds was here?

If we all started buying Fords, would we have a huge influx if Illegal Japanese because they cant sell Toyotas? Clarify this for me, Im lost.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If we all started buying Fords, would we have a huge influx if Illegal Japanese because they cant sell Toyotas?

Nah, they sell Fords in Japan

 

[Makalakumu]

Ok, I'm either stupid or confused, Because I am reading what you are saying is that buy purchasing an american product, Im forcing illegal aliens to come here. If I purchase from McDonalds or Doritos here in Chicago, the farmers in mexico cannot sell their product down there, so they have to come here.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Enjoy your Big Macs!

Welcome to Wal-America!

It's all tied together.

 

[michaeledward]

Your inability to understand - or at least give credence to - the opinions of others only serves to undermine any credence I place on your opinion. I do not have to agree with a person to understand or give credence to their opinions; your total inability (based on your posts over time) show that you are uninterested in any opinion that does not match your own, a loss to yourself that only you can determine. For myself, I would rather agree to
disagree with someone than to denigrate them solely because they disagree with me. I find it broadens my horizons.

Kacey,

If you believe I denigrated you - my apologies. I was denigrating your argument. I understand the difference between the arguer and the argument. You stated that Chinatown did not arise because of racial discrimination. That is just wrong. And it is wrong in a big way.

The entire post here - although I quote only a portion of it - is reasonable and something with which I find no dispute. I think if you look at your original, and subsequent posts, I believe there is a difference among them.

I will continue to disagree with the way in which you characterize my attitudes and abilities; regardless of how you interpret my posts. I am quite certain I state my beliefs, forcefully. I believe them strongly. But I disagree with your assessment that I find fault with differing opinions merely because they are counter to mine. Opinions that I find factually unsupported, or weakly argued will get challenged.

If an opinion is argued intelligently and supported, I will have no problem agreeing to disagree. I am completely aware that my opinions are not in the mushy middle. So my opinion often needs to be argued clearly. I know that the majority of people in the country do not share my opinion.

My best friend and fishing buddie is an 'arch conservative' - I've read Limbaugh's books because he's bought them for me. I think his views are wrong, but we get along just fine.

I continue to believe that anyone advocating a fence is wrong. The fence is wrong. I believe the 'illegal immigrant' is the 'OTHER' that we are all taught to fear. It is manipulation by the political powers to get control over the levers of power. Being concerned with pockets of 1st generation immigrants not speaking English is, in my opinion foolish to the extreme. In the next century, all the languages of the world will devolve to two - a version of English and a version of Mandarin. Getting panicked about a little Espanole is focusing on the wrong thing. I think.

Michael

 

[Cryozombie]

That is exactly what I'm saying. Enjoy your Big Macs!

Sorry man, thats just ****ing stupid.

 

[Makalakumu]

Sorry man, thats just ****ing stupid.

Sorry man, but it's ****ing true. The **** you do affects other people.

And in a globalized world, connections are far reaching indeed.

Welcome to Wal-America.

Watch the video.

 

[Cryozombie]

Sorry man, but it's ****ing true. The **** you do affects other people.

And in a globalized world, connections are far reaching indeed.

Welcome to Wal-America.

Watch the video.

If thats true If I only buy from "El Burrito Mexico", all the American Farmers will be out of work, and have to illegally immigrate to Mexico, right? So nothing I can do is the "right" thing, now is it?

 

[Makalakumu]

If thats true If I only buy from "El Burrito Mexico", all the American Farmers will be out of work, and have to illegally immigrate to Mexico, right? So nothing I can do is the "right" thing, now is it?

BTW - did you watch the video I posted? Do you farm? Do you know anything about the industrial agriculture process in the US? Not trying to be mean or anything, but the last question especially is important if you are going to understand how "dumping" works.

 

[Cryozombie]

BTW - did you watch the video I posted? Do you farm? Do you know anything about the industrial agriculture process in the US? Not trying to be mean or anything, but the last question especially is important if you are going to understand how "dumping" works.

Nope... currently having bandwith issues. Nope... havnt lived on a farm since I was in kindergarten. And Nope. Cant say that I do.

Thats why I asked for clarification of my understanding several posts up, but you told me my understanding of what you were saying was exactly right... so...

 

[Makalakumu]

If thats true If I only buy from "El Burrito Mexico", all the American Farmers will be out of work, and have to illegally immigrate to Mexico, right? So nothing I can do is the "right" thing, now is it?

Okay, in a nutshell, here is how it works. American farmers are heavily subsidized. The federal government engages directly in price manipulation by paying huge industrial factory farms. This drives down the price of ag products.

American farmers are also subsidized in terms of oil. The oil they use for fertilizer, the oil used for pesticides, and the oil used for transportation is all coming to the market far cheaper then market price.

The end result is that we can dump large quantities of ag products on the market below the cost of what it takes to make them. This is almost exactly what Wal-mart does, after a fashion. The smaller farmers, including the American family farmer, can't compete.

Here is how it connects to you.

When you buy a bag of chips or a cheeseburger, all of those are made with ag products purchased from the large industrial farms who are able to deliver food to you for so cheap because the prices are artificially low. This is akin to shopping at Wal-Mart instead of your local ma and pa store.

In this way, you support the system that drives Mexican farm labor out of business and north of their border in order to make a living.

 

[mrhnau]

Okay, in a nutshell, here is how it works. American farmers are heavily subsidized. The federal government engages directly in price manipulation by paying huge industrial factory farms. This drives down the price of ag products.

American farmers are also subsidized in terms of oil. The oil they use for fertilizer, the oil used for pesticides, and the oil used for transportation is all coming to the market far cheaper then market price.

The end result is that we can dump large quantities of ag products on the market below the cost of what it takes to make them. This is almost exactly what Wal-mart does, after a fashion. The smaller farmers, including the American family farmer, can't compete.

Here is how it connects to you.

When you buy a bag of chips or a cheeseburger, all of those are made with ag products purchased from the large industrial farms who are able to deliver food to you for so cheap because the prices are artificially low. This is akin to shopping at Wal-Mart instead of your local ma and pa store.

In this way, you support the system that drives Mexican farm labor out of business and north of their border in order to make a living.

In part, correct. The family farms are also dying out partly due to the death tax. They are not cash rich, so have to liquidate in order to pay the tax burden. Perhaps they will get rid of that stupid law eventually. Each generation of deaths makes it more difficult for small farming familes to stay alive.

Smaller farmers do get subsidized too, but a proportionally small piece of the pie. The difference is they can't do the volume of produce neccessary to compete with the mega-farmers. I grew up on a farm. I honestly don't know any family farms anymore in my region. Its not all "mega-farmers" but I don't know anyone that farms -only- their own land.

 

[michaeledward]

And with NAFTA, the push for a Flat Earth, and the Global Marketplace, not only can Americans buy products at the very inexpensive 'walmartitized' price; but the local farmers around the world can not even generate enough product for local consumption. The neighbors of those small farmers in Africa or Mexico can buy the American Products cheaper than local products.

Using the Wal-Mart metaphor, its not just that Wal-Mart comes in and kills the small local businesses on Main Street in your town, but it also kills the local businesses in the surrounding towns. In this case, the 'surrounding towns' is the entire planet.

You hear the arguments about the difference between 'Free Trade' and 'Fair Trade'. And many of us, perhaps, think it is the 'other' guy who is not trading 'Fair'. Alas, at the expense of foreign farmers, and American laborers, it is not so.