Muk Yan Jong Question

[Svemocn1vidar]

SNT is to develop structure,to get the idea in your mind. Dummy is not simply a training device,it also represents a "form" of movements.
In first 3 forms you become familiar with movements you will later apply on the dummy and by training with your partner. So it's good to learn to forms first,this is done with reason. There are different sections in the dummy that are heavily connected with empty-hand forms.
Ofcourse,it won't hurt you to practise the dummy even though you've learned only SNT. Feel free to practise what you've learned. Why dummy is called the most advanced form ? Because you begin to apply everything you've learned on it,because you do the most important footwork on it,and ofcourse,because you become as hard as rock by training on it.

@Pedro
Don't worry about a thing,what's important is the will to train and idea that's coming to your mind. One day if you decide to go a find yourself a Sifu,you'll correct the things you did wrong. Just keep up the good work.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I know we've beat this dead horse with a club til it's nothing but bones, but I still have to say, MacPedro, it's not wise to try to learn Wing Chun on your own by way of YouTube videos and/or books, etc. There are hundreds of posts on this forum explaining why you shouldn't. The most important being it does you more harm than good. Not to mention the reputation of the art itself. You need a qualified instructor to teach you so that you will get it right.

So maybe we on the forum can help. First off, where do you live, state, county, city, neighborhood, etc. With all the vast resources on this forum, surely we can find someone close enough for you to get the proper training. That way, you fully understand how the art works and also don't damage further the already damaged reputation of Wing Chun.

 

[zepedawingchun]

@Pedro
Don't worry about a thing,what's important is the will to train and idea that's coming to your mind. One day if you decide to go a find yourself a Sifu,you'll correct the things you did wrong. Just keep up the good work.

How does he know he's doing good work in his training, when all he has to compare with is what he sees on YouTube. And we all know most of the stuff on it is trash. Practising what he sees on YouTube will not make for good Wing Chun, no matter what. So, I have to say, bad idea. In our lineage, we have a saying and it goes like this:

'Do not force things. It is dangerous to deviate from instructions or push for completion. It takes a long time to do a thing properly. Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change.'

Please pay attention to the last line, it is so important when it comes to Wing Chun training and hand skills. The saying practice makes perfect does not apply here. The line should really be perfect practice makes perfect. Trying to learn WC from YouTube or a video is no where near perfect.

 

[MacPedro]

Hello again,
thanks everybody for the nurturing support and encouragement. I didn't mean to usurp the thread.

I'm not trying to learn on my own, it's just that I don't know of a Sifu within a hundred miles. If I hadn't family commitments I'd travel more readily.

I'm from Aberdeenshire in Scotland and I have a choice of Edinburgh or Inverness. I'll probably head to Edinburgh once I've asked more about times.

I don't view anything I do as definative. Just when I think I have an understanding of a move or position I come across something else that makes me think I have my energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board. Even though it's 2 steps forward and one step back I'm still upbeat about it.

I know I'll need proper instruction for Chi Sau and this is my driver at the moment.

I'll search for those threads about 'the hidden dangers' but enough about me, this thread was about another dummy

Pete

 

[zepedawingchun]

I'm not trying to learn on my own. . . . . Just when I think I have an understanding of a move or position I come across something else that makes me think I have my energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board. Even though it's 2 steps forward and one step back I'm still upbeat about it.

Because you state when you think you have an understanding of a move or position you come across something else that makes you think you have your energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board means you are trying to learn or do something with it. Experimentation without understanding is dangerous.

I know I'll need proper instruction for Chi Sau and this is my driver at the moment.

Not just chi sau, but for the forms, the use of the hand positions, the drills, the principles, theories, concepts, everything. Learning Wing Chun correctly cannot be done with an online study course. You need someone who understands it and can guide you through the course.

 

[zepedawingchun]

MacPedro, have you checked out this place, claims to offer Wing Chun and is in Aberdeen:

http://aberdeen.kungfu-wutan.co.uk/

 

[bully]

Hey MacP, welcome to the forum. I feel your pain about not having a sifu close, I am from Jersey and there is no one here to teach, I am lucky enough to have a friend who is very good but he has not got alot of time.
The guys on here are a wealth of info and will help all they can, but I will agree too that you need a sifu. I googled Scottish Wing Chun and there is lots of links (no access here in China for me though). I see that a lot are from Glasgow which doesn't help but it may be worth contacting them to see if anyone is around your area.
Your enthusiasm is what you need in WC and it will show in your training, even if you can meet with a sifu once every 2 weeks it will be a help. That professional eye on your shapes, energy etc is critical.
Enjoy martialtalk mate.

 

[MacPedro]

ZepedaWC,
thank you for the link. How much WC is in Wutan does anyone here know? I'll have a search.

Thank you also for your concern, could you elaborate on any of these dangers, what should I be vigilant of?

I have a couple of books and these were excellent places to start learning names and sequences, I know I need a partner but I have literally bored everyone of my friends, my wife, workmates and my daughter to tears talking about how clever and intellectual WC is. The books must be more than supplimentary knowledge though or they'd never sell any?

Bully, thank you for your advice. I have been trying to keep an eye out for any weekend long training seminars and so on that will make a long journey worthwhile. I wish I had found out about Sifu David Petersons visit to the UK before I was committed to work I would have made the effort to visit that. Did anybody here go? Maybe this should be answered in a seperate thread. I bad for this one being derailed.

Pete

 

[Svemocn1vidar]

How does he know he's doing good work in his training, when all he has to compare with is what he sees on YouTube. And we all know most of the stuff on it is trash. Practising what he sees on YouTube will not make for good Wing Chun, no matter what. So, I have to say, bad idea. In our lineage, we have a saying and it goes like this:

'Do not force things. It is dangerous to deviate from instructions or push for completion. It takes a long time to do a thing properly. Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change.'

Please pay attention to the last line, it is so important when it comes to Wing Chun training and hand skills. The saying practice makes perfect does not apply here. The line should really be perfect practice makes perfect. Trying to learn WC from YouTube or a video is no where near perfect.

I am simply saying it's better for him to train something - then nothing. Ofcourse he won't be able to learn properly over Youtube,but to be willing to train is what's most important. As he said,he can't afford to travel hundred miles to locate a Sifu atm. But don't you think he should try to get familiar with Wing Chun by himself?
If there is a "will" to learn and train something,then i dont see why i wouldnt support such enthusiasm. Even though he's probably not doing things properly,he's doing something and trying to learn,that's what counts the most.

For example - Before i found a Sifu,i did Siu Lim Tao on my own,i practiced shifting and neutral stance on my own. When i went to school,Sifu told me that i developed good basic structure and corrected my mistakes.
He also said i got my legs strong enough to start with Chi Gerk training sooner then expected. So in my opinion,it's all good,just keep up the good work Pedro.

 

[zepedawingchun]

I am simply saying it's better for him to train something - then nothing.

I have to disagree, not if he's doing it wrong. And how will he know if he's doing it right or wrong unless there is someone to oversee him.

Ofcourse he won't be able to learn properly over Youtube,but to be willing to train is what's most important.

If he's willing to train and wants it that bad, he should make the sacrifice(s) to find a legitimate instructor and learn it the correct way. As everyone should with everything. Just because I want something doesn't mean I should get it. And especially not in a half *** way which is what self instruction or through videos and books is. If I want something that bad, it's worth the sacrifice to do it correctly and get it the proper way.

As he said,he can't afford to travel hundred miles to locate a Sifu atm. But don't you think he should try to get familiar with Wing Chun by himself?
If there is a "will" to learn and train something,then i dont see why i wouldnt support such enthusiasm.

I applaud his desire and willingness to learn. And I support his enthusiasm. But not doing it in a way that may get him hurt, learn incorrectly, hurt, or damage the already damaged name of the art. And that goes for any martial art, or anything that you, he, or I may study. If people want something that is that important to them, they find ways to free up the time, get the money, make the sacrifices to do it the right way. And learning Wing Chun only has one right way, through a good instructor.

Even though he's probably not doing things properly,he's doing something and trying to learn,that's what counts the most.

No it is not. What counts is that he learn something that is usefull, and you get that by training it correctly because one day he may have to use it to protect himself or others. If learned correctly, he will trust he can put 100% into using it and rest assured he did his best because he had the correct training. If learned incorrectly, it may get him and others hurt or even worse, killed.

For example - Before i found a Sifu,i did Siu Lim Tao on my own,i practiced shifting and neutral stance on my own. When i went to school,Sifu told me that i developed good basic structure and corrected my mistakes.

Maybe you're that 1 in 1000 who can get it right without too much guidance. But you said it yourself, when you found a sifu, he MADE CORRECTIONS, which means you were doing some things wrong. And now your Wing Chun is better for it. How does MacPedro or anyone else know they are just as good, better, or worse than you were? Or that they even have an idea that they may be doing it right or wrong? They don't, not without giudance.

I have seen too many people trying to learn Wing Chun on their own, come visit me only to find they were going the wrong way, doing it wrong, and totally screwing up the art, thinking they knew what they were doing only to find out what they were doing was pure ****. From forms, to hand positions, to drills, to chi sau, all of it just crap. And also find out some of them were out there teaching this crap, convincing people they can defend themselves if they just follow what they were taught.

I'm not saying he has to go to class 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. What I am saying is he should seek out someone qualified to teach him from the start, go to class, once, twice, three times a month, and be under the guidance of someone who can help him correct his mistakes as they arise, instead of trying to do it on his own. Get the right start, the right foundation, and continue from there. Surely he can find the time and money for qualified instruction a few times a month, don't you think? If he can't then he shouldn't be wasting his time on martial arts. It may take him some time to learn, but at least he knows he's on the right track.

He also said i got my legs strong enough to start with Chi Gerk training sooner then expected.

Well, good for you.

So in my opinion,it's all good,just keep up the good work Pedro.

I'm tired of people having the attitude that if you want something or want to do something, you can just go ahead and do it any way you want, right or wrong. Whatever happen to doing it right with good old hard work, perseverance, and pride. By you saying it's all good, you're willing to condon his learning Wing Chun wrong just to satisfy his ego that he's learning something, even if it's wrong. I'm sorry, I can't do that.

MacPedro, go out and find a qualified instructor before you go any further, do it the right way. You'll be so much better for it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe you're that 1 in 1000 who can get it right without too much guidance. But you said it yourself, when your found a sifu, he MADE CORRECTIONS, which means you were doing some things wrong. And now your Wing Chun is better for it. How does MacPedro or anyone else know they are just as good, better, or worse than you were? Or that they even have an idea that they may be doing it right or wrong? They don't, not without giudance.

I have seen too many people trying to learn Wing Chun on their own, come visit me only to find they were going the wrong way, doing it wrong, and totally screwing up the art, thinking they knew what they were doing only to find out what they were doing was pure ****. From forms, to hand positions, to drills, to chi sau, all of it just crap. And also find out some of them were out there teaching this crap, convincing people they can defend themselves if they just follow what they were taught.

I'm not saying he has to go to class 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. What I am saying is he should seek out someone qualified to teach him from the start, go to class, once, twice, three times a month, and be under the guidance of someone who can help him correct his mistakes as they arise, instead of trying to do it on his own. Get the right start, the right foundation, and continue from there. Surely he can find the time and money for qualified instruction a few times a month, don't you think? If he can't then he shouldn't be wasting his time on martial arts. It may take him some time to learn, but at least he knows he's on the right track.

I have to comment here based on my current experience. But first let me state I agree with zepedawingchun.

I have been trained Siu Lim Tao twice by my sifu and partially a 3rd time by another sifu. I am currently working on it on my own but I would not say I am training Wing Chun. I am working on Siu lim tao but mostly form an internal perspective which comes from my years of training what many categorize as ICMA styles. And there have been times I have had to look at a video to see if I was even close to right due to the amount of time that has passed between my actual training and now. I am using videos that my sifu recommended as a bit of a guide to assist in memory but they still do not substitute for training with my sifu. I would not go out and tell people I train Wing Chun and I try my best to not say I train Wing Chun on MT, although I imagine I have failed at that more than once. I try to stress I “trained” Wing Chun and I am currently working on Siu Lum Tao.

Now with all that said I am absolutely 100% sure I have picked up some bad habits and I absolutely know that if I want those corrected I need to go back to my sifu to have him correct my form, which I am considering, but at this point I have not made the decision to do that because to do that means I am seriously training Wing Chun.

I understand someone having a desire to train a specific art and I understand the frustration of not having anyone remotely close to you who teaches it but going to purely video training without a sifu I simply do not think is a good idea and I am currently of the belief that it would be better to focus on a martial art that you could get to and could work with a teacher on and who knows, somewhere down the road you may actually find the teacher you were looking for in the art you wanted…or you may discover you were in the art you wanted all along.

I'm tired of people having the attitude that if you want something or want to do something, you can just go ahead and do it any way you want, right or wrong. Whatever happen to doing it right with good old hard work, perseverance, and pride. By you saying it's all good, you're willing to condon his learning Wing Chun wrong just to satisfy his ego that he's learning something, even if it's wrong. I'm sorry, I can't do that.

MacPedro, go out and find a qualified instructor before you go any further, do it the right way. You'll be so much better for it.

Sadly the old days are dead and gone and the web and that availability of DVDs and the plethora of teachers wanting to cash in on distance education have gone a long ways in killing them.

But you are right and I do believe that one is better looking for a Martial Arts Teacher in their area to train a martial art in their area rather than focus on one that is unattainable at that moment. This however does not mean it will always be unattainable, could be the class you take in another art leads you to exactly where you want to be or exactly where you needed to be and did not realize it.

 

[mook jong man]

Zepeda is 110 % correct on this , this guy is just creating a crap load of work for his eventual future Sifu as he will have to iron out all the incorrect movements that have now become habitualised.

Students still get things wrong even when I'm standing there in front of them correcting them , you will tell them something is wrong , show them the correct way , they will do it correctly for a few reps then slowly but surely they will slip back into the wrong method.
Then what usually happens is I will have to create some sort of drill to engrain the correct movement into them.

So if people can get things wrong under such close supervision , how in the hell can you learn from a book or video clips.

I believe that you learn in three ways .

1. Watch the instructor and mimic his technique.
2. Have the instructor do the technique on you , so you can see what it feels like.
3. Then do the technique many, many times against varying individuals , at varying levels of intensity under the guidance of a qualified instructor.

One of my old instructors used to say " If you can make the technique work against ten different people , then your doing well ".

 

[MacPedro]

Dear All,
thank you all for your care and advice. I regret giving anyone the impression that I was about to think I knew anything indepth about WC from what I have been doing so far. I only meant what I said about the dummy to help Xue Sheng. His signature message seems to support this.
I know that in order to proceed with this beautiful and ingenious form I will need a teacher. I get it. I had allowed my embarrassment at being in the limelight to prevent me saying as much. I am not driven by ego, those urges left me with youth.

I can’t imagine how I would go about damaging the rep of Wing Chun. I am not about to wade into street fights shouting “The hand that blocks, also strikes...your face, Aiieeee!”

I have always felt that to try to solve problems with violence gives you nothing but more problems. I don't get into fights. I haven't the heart to wreck someones face, this is a morale choice of my own. I suppose I'm a pacifist who feels an obligation to learn how to control an adversary rather than slay them. (Jet Li's Fearless is an excellent illustration of this but I digress).

Once more I am sorry.
Do not be troubled a teacher will be forthcoming, the student is obviously not yet ready

Pedro

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . .I can’t imagine how I would go about damaging the rep of Wing Chun. I am not about to wade into street fights shouting “The hand that blocks, also strikes...your face, Aiieeee!”

You damage the rep of Wing Chun by training from books and dvds, on your own, not knowing what you're doing. Then touting your knowledge of the art only to find when you attempt to use it, you get your *** handed to you by some punk who touts he kicked *** on a Wing Chun master. Cause to the general public, if you do martial arts, you're a master.

Then from there on, that punk will always have something bad to say about Wing Chun. He'll say stuff like 'that Wing Chun aint so bad' or 'it really sucks because I kicked *** on someone who did it and I'm not trained'. And so you will have nothing but bad stuff to say because you'll claim it let you down. When in reality, you let the art down by not finding qualified instruction and training the way it should be.

 

[wtxs]

Yooo Zapeda .... I was wondering when you gonna jump in on this book/video training thing.

 

[Svemocn1vidar]

@ Zep :
I respect your opinion. Allthough it seems to me you're somewhat bitter about me expressing my own. Nothing can be achieved without enthusiasm and training. The guy said he tried some stuff and can't find an instructor at the moment,my advice for him was to train basic stuff that can easily be corrected,yours was to do nothing.

Difference of opinion.

 

[zepedawingchun]

@ Zep :
I respect your opinion. Allthough it seems to me you're somewhat bitter about me expressing my own. Nothing can be achieved without enthusiasm and training. The guy said he tried some stuff and can't find an instructor at the moment,my advice for him was to train basic stuff that can easily be corrected,yours was to do nothing.

Difference of opinion.

I am not bitter, you weren't giving just your opinion, you were giving him advice. And I feel your giving the wrong advice. I didn't say he should do nothing, I said he shouldn't try to do Wing Chun on his own. I'm sure there are other martial arts within his area he can train (I even gave him a link in his area to a place which does several martial arts, Wing Chun being part of it). But he claims Wing Chun is not one of them. As an instructor of Wing Chun for 23 years, I'm telling you training on his own with no guidance is a mistake. I have seen many examples of it over the years and I can tell you from first hand experience, it's not the best way to go about learning. And not just Wing Chun, but for any martial art.

Basic stuff once done wrong is not easily fixed, contrary to what you may believe. I see it everyday in student(s) who trained with someone else before coming to me to learn. Sometimes it takes years to change one simple motion that makes a difference in any and all your hand positions. Basics are the foundation, and once they are ingrained incorrectly, they are hard to fix.

Here's an example, some Sifu's teach their students to shift or pivot on their heels, some on the balls of their feet, and even others teach them to shift on the middles. I had a couple of students join my class 4 years ago, coming from another Wing Chun school, which shift different than what I teach. And to this day, after my constant addressing, reminding, catching, re-iterating over and over and over, how and why, they still shift the way they were initially taught from the previous instructor, which is differently than students who began their training with me. Now you may say, what difference does how they shift make? A world of difference, enough that I can capitalize on it when I feel they don't do it the way I have taught. And that's just one example.

Bad habits start at the basics and need to be addressed when they begin. Training on your own, without guidance does nothing to address or prevent the problem from happening. That is why I say doing nothing is better than doing something that is not supervised. In the long run, you are wasting your time, and hurting yourself more than helping.