Muk Yan Jong Form

[Transk53]

Basically yes, although I think some schools switch the knives and pole around. Something that's interesting to note though is that in mainland styles the forms will be spelled with different characters. (Siu Nim Tau 小念頭 [Little Idea] is Siu Lim Tao 小練套 [Little Training Set], Chum Kiu 尋橋 [Seeking the Bridge/Bridging the Gap] is romanized the same but uses the characters 沉橋 [Sinking the Bridge], etc. I think Bat Jam Dao/Eight Slashing knives becomes some crazy **** like Yin and Yang Life Taking Knives or something lol)

Sweet, thankyou I don't quite understand the bridge in the term. Is this a philosophy like thing. IE, the bridge is the link between conscious and ingrained memory and thought process. Are able to just react and move at the same perceived time. I mean you are fast, I don't need Hollywood for that.

 

[Transk53]

Oh, I mean all of you in being fast.

 

[Marnetmar]

Sweet, thankyou I don't quite the bridge in the term. Is this a philosophy like thing. IE, the bridge is the link between conscious and ingrained memory and thought process. Are able to just react and move at the same perceived time. I mean you are fast, I don't need Hollywood for that.

When your arm touches your opponent's arm, you've created a bridge, and from a bridge you can control your opponent. That's what "bridge" in this case refers to.

 

[Transk53]

When your arm touches your opponent's arm, you've created a bridge, and from a bridge you can control your opponent. That's what "bridge" in this case refers to.

Right, okay. So a long bridge would be the upper arm, short bridge as in the wrist/forearm?

 

[Marnetmar]

Right, okay. So a long bridge would be the upper arm, short bridge as in the wrist/forearm?

As in where your opponent's arm makes contact with yours? I suppose you could say that, but I like to think of it as the other way around. The bridge becomes shorter the closer you are to the opponent.

 

[Transk53]

As in where your opponent's arm makes contact with yours? I suppose you could say that, but I like to think of it as the other way around. The bridge becomes shorter the closer you are to the opponent.

Of course, it would stand to reason with YY. Well from my point of view anyways. Where would the sweet spot be? I mean if in terms of middle, a twist and snap of the elbow would make sense. This being the medium distance?

 

[Marnetmar]

I don't think there's really any place that you could call a "sweet spot" since it all really depends on what your opponent is throwing at you. My general rule is that when you make contact with the arm, step in immediately and attack. Don't try to apply Chi Na until you have the guy in a position where he can't escape or make any cheap shots (I.E you've collapsed both of his arms in)

 

[Transk53]

I don't think there's really any place that you could call a "sweet spot" since it all really depends on what your opponent is throwing at you. My general rule is that when you make contact with the arm, step in immediately.

Really, that is interesting. I would be inclined to throw a low kick towards the ankle. But I am thinking you may use an elbow?

 

[Marnetmar]

Nothing is preventing you from stomping on the guy's knee/ankle once you've stepped in, or as you're stepping in.

 

[Transk53]

Nothing is preventing you from stomping on the guy's knee/ankle once you've stepped in, or as you're stepping in.

Right. Stepping in for is usually top side. I may have interpreted wrong, and in the context of Wing Chun almost certainly. If I was stepping topside, yeah I can see. But lower down, it would probably be a hook or ankle, hypothetical of course!

 

[KPM]

Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others. In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu. Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form. This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages. In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning. Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy. Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:

1. Larger class sizes with limited time. This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
2. A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on. In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag. But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
3. Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners. This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.

 

[Danny T]

Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others. In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu. Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form. This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages. In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning. Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy. Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:

1. Larger class sizes with limited time. This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
2. A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on. In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag. But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
3. Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners. This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.

I agree KPM, the jong is an excellent tool for all levels.
As I already stated, I use the jong early for drills and the form while learning Chum Kiu. 1st half of the form is CK and the 2nd is CK and BJ. I have 4 Mook Jongs set at differing heights for different height students and we work the jong several times a month. Advanced students work the form as well as drills and free movements.

 

[Transk53]

Some have a dummy form that is a little longer than others. In most Ip Man lineages the dummy form is taught after Chum Kiu. Those that have a little longer dummy form will often teach the Biu Gee form after the 1st half of the dummy form and teach the second half of the dummy only after the student has the Biu Gee form. This is because the 2nd half of the dummy form contains techniques and concepts from the Biu Gee form for those lineages. In Pin Sun Wing Chun, the dummy is taught right from the beginning. Each solo set learned has a version that is practiced on the dummy. So from day 1 students do things on the dummy. Even in Ip Man Wing Chun the dummy has many good uses right from the beginning. I think the main reasons that many people don't get to touch the dummy until they are more advanced are:

1. Larger class sizes with limited time. This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
2. A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on. In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag. But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
3. Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners. This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.

I can see that. I know from before that some classes are rather large. In fact I remember I quite shocked that both the JKD classes were less than a dozen each on average. Must have been at least 30 students every time at Wing Chun. The cost of a tough plastic dummy is nearly £300 pounds. Another 100 or so for a wooden one. Mind new something made from a decent lump of wood, I guess it would cost some money. I imagine they are expertly crafted as opposed to totally machine made.

 

[geezer]

1. Larger class sizes with limited time. This doesn't leave much opportunity to work on the dummy except for the advanced students.
2. A dummy is expensive to buy and not many can make their own so most students don't have one at home to practice on. In my mind the Wing Chun dummy serves a similar purpose as the Boxing heavy bag. But if you don't have ready access to one, what are you going to learn?
3. Even if an instructor is teaching a small group or has multiple dummies available for a larger group, it could be he or she wasn't taught anything on the dummy as a beginner, therefore they don't teach any dummy practice to beginners. This would be a shame, because the dummy is a great tool for all levels.

Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons.

I keep my own dummy at home. My personal excuse for not having a dummy for the school is that I have a very small group that rents space at a boxing gym. We really haven't had the funds to get a school dummy or the space to put it up ...yet. I'm working on that. Personally, contrary to the way I was taught, I agree that there are many things that could be trained productively on the dummy from a very early stage.

 

[Transk53]

Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons.

Could that not be a little counterproductive though. Perhaps students at whatever level may slack off a little from being precise in the learning structure, to thinking yeah "get passed that as quickly as possible, then the dummy is mine" kind of thing?

 

[Danny T]

Pretty logical analysis. Another reason for not teaching the dummy for a long time could be to wave it as a "carrot" to keep students coming to class over a longer period of time. Sometimes the same is true for the weapons.

I believe the carrot theory is to keep students "paying" over a longer period of time. And often the same for weapons.
I start my students doing the weapons strength training drills when they are about half way through Chum Kiu training.

 

[wingerjim]

Hey all, Had a conversation with a Wing Chunner that I know. It regarded the use of the wooden dummy, or as you peeps would say Muk Yan Jong. For a start he said it was the fifth form, I understand to be the fourth. Anyway whatever the case, do you have to complete the three empty hands before you start using a dummy? This I assume would what would be the class curriculum. This Wing Chunner says that he has bought a dummy with which to practice.

Now I cannot verify or debunk his claims that he has gone beyond the first forms, I don’t want to be disbelieving, but if you need what comes before, would there be any point in getting a dummy. Can you practice effectively without arriving at the time of going to Muk Yan Jong? May seem a silly question, but I was thinking of the conditioning that a person, or myself, that would come from the wood (or hard plastic). I imagine it would be a little painful at first. In addition to this, I am thinking that it would be a few years before you got anywhere near one. Thoughts?

In my school my teacher started me and all other students on the dummy almost from day 1, not the form, but very small parts of the form like intercept hand and pak sau. As the student progresses and begins Chum Kue, they start to do more complex dummy exercises and by the time a student begins to learn bil gee, the student might know the first 30 parts of the dummy form. By the time the student is proficient in bil gee, he/she might have learned the entire dummy form but only about 50% proficient. I like this process of a little overlap of skills as one progresses. While this is going on the student starts part of the pole form and once they begin learning the entire pole form, some sword form begins.