Muk Yan Jong Question

[Xue Sheng]

Is it possible to learn the Muk Yan Jong, understand it and do it justice if all you know is Siu Nim Tao and have not learned Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and done very little Chi Sao?

Or is it imperative that you know Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and train Chi Sao for it to be understood and trained properly?

 

[mook jong man]

I don't believe it is , I think that having a solid grounding in SLT and being at the level of learning Chum Kiu would have to be the main requirement.

Because the dummy form requires precise positioning and proper coordination of stepping and pivoting with the arm movements.

The primary purpose of Chum Kiu is to teach you how to move , and without Chum Kiu you have not yet learn to move properly in your stance , so I think it would probably be hard for you to properly project your body mass into the dummy correctly.

 

[tenzen]

Depends. The dummy is just a dummy. A training device that doesn't necessarily have to be used for wc. But in the context of wc, you need to learn the empty hand forms first. There are principles in the forms that are applied in the dummy form. You need to understand these principles.
But looking at it as a training tool only. You wouldn't have to know any wing chun to use it. You would just have to grow outside the box, as I have stated before. I know kenpo guys that use a jong and don't know a thing about wc. Same with silat and some arnis guys. The jong is just a training utensil and doesn't have to be limited to one system or use. There are many types of jongs. When I practiced hop gar our jong was a hanging log, like a heavy bag. No arms or legs. Hei hu quan uses a grinder dummy that's like a wc jong only separated into 3 sections.
So to use a jong period u don't need to know any wc, just know something and learn to work it on the jong. But to use it for wc learn it how your sifu gives it to you.

 

[almost a ghost]

It is very important that you know Chum Kiu and Biu Tse before learning the dummy.

The dummy is combination of all three forms coming together. Combining the footwork from Chum Kiu with Biu Tse to learn to move around your opponent while breaking and returning to the proper structure/lines.

Enjoy the ride.

 

[yak sao]

I think it could be done....it would be harder though. Maybe not the best analogy, but it would be like learning algebra without a firm foundation in math....or learning to play a song on the guitar without understanding the basic notes and cords.
Any other analogies anyone?

 

[yak sao]

I remember when I studied another system of CMA years ago. Our forms were southern style, so not the flashy kind that one might associate with kung fu.
This Chinese teacher moved into the area, who taught more of a northern/flashy style of kung fu. Well, one of our instructors switched over to him, taking several students of varying levels with him.
He taught our material at an accelerated level in an effort to get his students to the newer, flashier stuff sooner.
But what you ended up with were not instructor level students practicing a beginning level form. It was beginner students practicing a black sash level form. And it showed....they didn't have the foudation to perform the forms the way they needed to be practiced, so they didn't get the full benefit of the forms.

 

[bully]

I am at this level too but I have a dummy at home. I just do drills on it and use it to check my shapes. Also if you are inclined you could condition on it too...I know you are not supposed to hit it hard and flow around it BUT it could be used for conditioning if you want.

Somewhere (and I can't remember where) I read that WSL said the dummy form could be started after you had learnt the first third of Chum Kui and you could learn both together. Please correct me if i am wrong as it was just on the net somewere.

Guys what do you think? Is the first third of CK enough??

At Kung Fu school at the mo, done a week. Will start a new thread later about it...god I ache!!

 

[mook jong man]

I am at this level too but I have a dummy at home. I just do drills on it and use it to check my shapes. Also if you are inclined you could condition on it too...I know you are not supposed to hit it hard and flow around it BUT it could be used for conditioning if you want.

Somewhere (and I can't remember where) I read that WSL said the dummy form could be started after you had learnt the first third of Chum Kui and you could learn both together. Please correct me if i am wrong as it was just on the net somewere.

Guys what do you think? Is the first third of CK enough??

At Kung Fu school at the mo, done a week. Will start a new thread later about it...god I ache!!

I think so , personally I don't believe you have to know the Bil Gee form for learning the wooden dummy , it would be nice , but I don't feel it is a requirement.

Most of the moves contained in the dummy form are a combination of Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu anyway.

 

[zepedawingchun]

It is very important that you know Chum Kiu and Biu Tse before learning the dummy.

The dummy is combination of all three forms coming together. Combining the footwork from Chum Kiu with Biu Tse to learn to move around your opponent while breaking and returning to the proper structure/lines.

Enjoy the ride.

In our system, you learn Siu Nim Tau (hand positions), Chum Kiu (footwork), and then the Mook Yan Jong (hands and feet combined). You don't need to know Biu Tze (Biu Jee) to work and train the jong. Biu Jee and the weapons forms are reserved for the advanced and most trusted students only. You can use the Wing Chun system and use it effectively with only the 3 forms, SNT, CK, and MYJ as mentioned.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . Most of the moves contained in the dummy form are a combination of Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu anyway.

Correct. If you look at the jong form, there are no hand positions from Biu Tze (Biu Jee) that are in the jong form other than the combination tan/gan motions in the second set. And those postions are introduced individually in Siu Nim Tau, not Biu Jee.

 

[Danny T]

Is it possible to learn the Muk Yan Jong, understand it and do it justice if all you know is Siu Nim Tao and have not learned Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and done very little Chi Sao?

Or is it imperative that you know Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and train Chi Sao for it to be understood and trained properly?

If one is learning the MYJ purely from a WC training system perspective I am of the opinion that a strong SNT and CK base is needed to have a high level of understanding of what is developed within MYJ form training. To use the MYJ for specific drills and positions; I do so often with all my students however, drilling or knowing the form and understanding the form is not the same thing. The first half of the dummy form is from CK the 2nd half of the form is mostly BT so knowledge of BT is important though. If one does not have a high level of understanding of SNT they will not have a good understanding of CK nor will they understand BT. To understand stickyness on the dummy my opinion is one needs to understand what Chi Sao is about. I see very few persons work the dummy with stickyness. Most completely disengage between the movements rather than stick. Makes me go, hmm??

 

[Eric_H]

You can train WC with no forms - just san sao application. Learn the dummy whenever you want to - as you learn more, what things you learn from the dummy will change.

There seems to be this strange idea that you learn the forms and then they're "finished." The forms are never finished - you just know the sequence. The concepts that drive them are an everyday struggle to ingrain deeper into your WC expression and life.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

More important than the learning of the SLT and CK forms, is the LESSONS and TEACHINGS gained. They can be taught with the MJ form as a vehicle, yet teaching them against a living person; their application and HOW to move for the desired effect is most important.

Also, you have to think about teaching a complete beginner... SLT = How to move your upper platform. CK = How to move your lower platform. MJ = How to mess someone up by changing angles. BJ = Advanced Messing up... lotsa secrets here!

Thus, since you, Xue Sheng, are NOT a beginner (in CMA), if you have good footwork and know how to move as a bone crushing unit at the moment of impact, go forth and learn the MJ form. Yet I suggest you invest time in the applications of each segment against a live human trying to punch your head off or grapple you "street thug Gonna-git-you-sucka" style. That way, you can use the dummy as a simulacrum of a person and apply actual forces to it.

Remember that the forms are only a vehicle for a competent Teacher to teach you self defense and messing up bad guys. Fortunately, they are a very sophisticated vehicle and a very powerful kinesiological "text book". Your experiences and learnings do not exclude you from benefiting; they actually help in my opinion.

I would be interested in your experience in learning the forms and how it all connects with your previous learnings and new discoveries from the training. As you shared when playing with SLT.

Ark Wong said once "All Chinese Martial art the same. All basic move the same. Difference is application." I believe this is very true in all high level martial sciences. They somehow converge.

Keep growing. Eternal Springtime, baby!!

Juan Mercado

P.S. MJ techs are to be seen not only as techniques but points of reference to many transitions. Playing with transitions is the fun part, yet it requires solid repetitive training to ingrain in a fruitful way... with a person (training partner) trying to actually hit you in the way a person with hate or harmful intentions would. I don't find it that useful to train against someone throwing chain punches or Sun Fist punches at me... that don't happen in real attacks here...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Thanks for the responses.

The reason for my question was that I realized the only reason I got in to Wing Chun in the first place was because I felt that the wooden dummy form could be of importance to many CMA styles. But then many CMA styles have their version of a wooden dummy form. Even Baguazhang has a version, IMO, with a wooden pole and Sanda’s use of a tree in its training is just another variation, IMO.

I am not at all surprised to hear that if you are approaching the Muk Yan Jong from the POV that you want to understand Wing Chun that it is important to know more than Siu Nim Tao since it does not move, as far as the feet are concerned, and I have observed movements in the Muk Yan Jong form and those did not come from Siu Nim Tao.

I was surprised to read about good and bad Muk Yan Jong form based on stickiness or lack thereof. But thinking back on my little experience with Chi Sao and thinking about what I consider good Chi Sao I did see stickiness and I can see that it most likely would be an important part of the Muk Yan Jong form and that Chi Sao is where that would likely come from. My root style is Taijiquan and stickiness is very important to the style in application.

Thank You for all the responses and my study of Wing Chun continues. I am still working on Siu Nim Tao but now in combination with Chen Silk Reeling (Chansigong) and so far it is rather interesting, but I think my Chansigong needs to get much better before I realize how well it does or does not work with Siu Nim Tao.


:asian:

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . .I was surprised to read about good and bad Muk Yan Jong form based on stickiness or lack thereof. But thinking back on my little experience with Chi Sao and thinking about what I consider good Chi Sao I did see stickiness and I can see that it most likely would be an important part of the Muk Yan Jong form and that Chi Sao is where that would likely come from. My root style is Taijiquan and stickiness is very important to the style in application.:asian:

Xue Sheng, it only makes sense to do the form and stick to the jong. Just like with a person, once you've made contact, you want to maintain that contact to be able to read or re-direct their intentions. You don't dis-engage unless striking the person. Same with the jong since it represents moving around or manipulating a person to trap or strike.

 

[zepedawingchun]

If one is learning the MYJ purely from a WC training system perspective I am of the opinion that a strong SNT and CK base is needed to have a high level of understanding of what is developed within MYJ form training. To use the MYJ for specific drills and positions; I do so often with all my students however, drilling or knowing the form and understanding the form is not the same thing. The first half of the dummy form is from CK the 2nd half of the form is mostly BT so knowledge of BT is important though. If one does not have a high level of understanding of SNT they will not have a good understanding of CK nor will they understand BT. To understand stickyness on the dummy my opinion is one needs to understand what Chi Sao is about. I see very few persons work the dummy with stickyness. Most completely disengage between the movements rather than stick. Makes me go, hmm??

Some schools teach the forms like thus:
SNT
CK
BT
MYJ

Others like this:
SNT
CK
MYJ
BT

And still others:
SNT
CK
1st 1/2 MYJ
1st 1/2 BT
2nd 1/2 MYJ
2nd 1/2 BT

I got to thinking about what Danny T Sifu said about the importance of first half of Biu Tze (Biu Jee) before learning the 2nd half of the Mook Yan Jong form. I stated the only positions in the jong from Biu Tze was tan/gan motion found in the 6th set (traditionally). But I must correct myself (SiDai Danny, I know you saw it, nothing gets past you. You should have corrected me), in the last set of the jong, some schools do a pak gerk towards the very end, and some schools do a Soo Gerk (inside arch strike). You are taught those motions in Biu Jee (if you do pak gerk in Biu Jee, you most likely do it in the jong form. If you do only circle step or soo gerk in Biu Jee, you most likely do Soo Gerk in the jong form too).

I don't teach Biu Jee to any students until they complete the Mook Yan Jong form. I reserve that for the most loyal and dedicated students. Plus, most students don't stay long enough to even get the first set of the dummy much less the first half of the dummy form. So to me, whether you teach the first half of the dummy and then the first half of the Biu Jee, or all of the dummy then Biu Jee, or whatever order, is a moot point.

 

[Danny T]

Form - Drills - Application

Form is Form: how we move, where we move, how to present the tools.
Drills are attribute builders: How you do, When you do, Where you do, Why you do, Who you do.
Application:using the movements to survive in real time against someone or multiple persons trying to strike or take you down or worse. The movements to the positions may be use in many, many ways; as long as one maintains the principles.

With that in mind, What is first? Form or understanding? Is it really important which is first? Knowing form and Understanding form is not the same thing. In the dummy usage many drills can be used to help the practitioners development. Is knowing the form more important than understanding what the movements (transitions) and/or positions can be utilized for? Beginners can learn the form in a short time. To understand the form? I have known the MYJ form for over 20 years and I still have new perspectives as to what can be done.

Over the years my Sifu has had me do several different variations of SLT, CK, BT, MYJ, BDJ, and dragon pole. I often wondered why did he change the forms? Why change the drills? Often he would say, "this is for you. You do it this way but keep showing it the other way."
"Sir, Why?" I would ask. He would remark, "you have it now play with it. Make it yours"
What a gift he has given. The Understand of the possibilities.

SiHing Al, I know you have far more an understand of the forms than you present, who am I to correct you?

Thanks to all for allowing me to ramble.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Form - Drills - Application

Form is Form: how we move, where we move, how to present the tools.
Drills are attribute builders: How you do, When you do, Where you do, Why you do, Who you do.
Application:using the movements to survive in real time against someone or multiple persons trying to strike or take you down or worse. The movements to the positions may be use in many, many ways; as long as one maintains the principles.

With that in mind, What is first? Form or understanding? Is it really important which is first? Knowing form and Understanding form is not the same thing. In the dummy usage many drills can be used to help the practitioners development. Is knowing the form more important than understanding what the movements (transitions) and/or positions can be utilized for? Beginners can learn the form in a short time. To understand the form? I have known the MYJ form for over 20 years and I still have new perspectives as to what can be done.

Over the years my Sifu has had me do several different variations of SLT, CK, BT, MYJ, BDJ, and dragon pole. I often wondered why did he change the forms? Why change the drills? Often he would say, "this is for you. You do it this way but keep showing it the other way."
"Sir, Why?" I would ask. He would remark, "you have it now play with it. Make it yours"
What a gift he has given. The Understand of the possibilities.

SiHing Al, I know you have far more an understand of the forms than you present, who am I to correct you?

Thanks to all for allowing me to ramble.

Okay Sidai, maybe not correct me. How about remind me?

Great post by the way, wouldn't expect anything less.

 

[MacPedro]

Hi all,
This is my first post, great site, I’m enjoying trawling the archives J
Total novice POV -
I had no Wing Chun experience before last summer where I started to copy SLT movements from youtube. There are no teachers near me and it’s been difficult to understand what it is I am even supposed to be doing, I feel i’m starting to understand though. Part of the problem is the many facets of Wing Chun itself or at least the way it can come across on the web J (NB I know I could be attaching too much emphasis on advice taken out of context).
I’ve also been aping the 8mm footage of Yip Mans Chum Kiu and although some movements give me trouble and I am very sloppy I think it’s better than not doing anything at all.
I built a dummy in the garage (also with the help of youtube) and have been working towards learning a sequence. I understand I could be picking up a million bad habits, I know my positioning is off and I’m bumbling through the dark. I have never had so much fun though.
One sure positive to come out of this, no matter what anyone says, my understanding of the first two forms is improving because of the dummy. The real pitfall with a perfectionist outlook is that you’re never sure that you got it right through luck or skill if you strive to get it right the first time. When you’re beginning is when you’re supposed to make mistakes and doing these on purpose will let you know why they’re called mistakes.
I’ll say again, I’m a total novice, don’t shoot me down I’m not trying to come across as an expert. Any advice/critique welcomed.
Pedro

 

[yak sao]

Hey Pedro, I appreciate your enthusiasm for WC, it's a fantastic art. So much of what is WC goes on on the inside so to speak, not just the outward appearance of the movements. Please please please try to find you a qualified teacher in your area. There may not be a commercial school as such but you may be surprised what's out there being taught out of garages and basements. I hope you are able to find someone to train you...best of luck.