Muay Thai in MMA

[drop bear]

The Muay Thai that I'm speaking of has grappling in it.

Probably not enough though.

 

[stonewall1350]

That contradicts itself, it cannot be a style of it's own yet a jack of all trades. It is evolving into a style, using techniques from other styles but modified to a fighter's personal liking. That doesn't make them a jack of all trades at all. Most people these days can't, when they watch a fight, tell which style a technique is from, the fighters have made them seamless and flowing one to another. It is becoming a whole not a mishmash of techniques.
There will come a time when people won't be discussing which base styles to have, which techniques to take but will learn MMA as a whole entity in it's own right. I guess many styles won't want that to happen because they lose their bragging rights about what works in MMA, they won't be able to boast as many do that such and such fighter came from their style so 'it must work'. Times move on, we must too or else MMA will disappear as many fads do.
I find it quite exciting, I hope I'm around to see it!

Well that is kind of what I mean by "jack of all trades." It doesn't really specialize. It is what you make it. Not all arts are like that, but some can be. There will always be an advantage in training more grappling than the other guy. Or more striking.

What will really change the game is if they make it an Olympic sport. But I don't think that will happen.


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[FriedRice]

The Muay Thai that I'm speaking of has grappling in it.

Muay Boran? That's like going to BJJ for striking techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Muay Boran? That's like going to BJJ for striking techniques.

What gets me is that fighting on the ground is nothing new. Kids do it from early ages with horse playing. People fought on the ground during wars, or when they are attacked on the roads. Greeks practice wrestling even though they had shields and long spears. So when history shows us things that are involved in hand to hand combat, why do so many think that a system that was used in combat is void of valid grappling techniques? Even in WWI soliders were taught grappling techniques and hand to hand techniques even though they had guns, bomb, planes, and chemical warfare. Do you really think there was less grappling in war as we go back in time before guns? or more? Do you actually think that soldiers back then only knew how to kick, punch, and use a sword?

 

[JowGaWolf]

What gets me is that fighting on the ground is nothing new. Kids do it from early ages with horse playing. People fought on the ground during wars, or when they are attacked on the roads. Greeks practice wrestling even though they had shields and long spears. So when history shows us things that are involved in hand to hand combat, why do so many think that a system that was used in combat is void of valid grappling techniques? Even in WWI soliders were taught grappling techniques and hand to hand techniques even though they had guns, bomb, planes, and chemical warfare. Do you really think there was less grappling in war as we go back in time before guns? or more? Do you actually think that soldiers back then only knew how to kick, punch, and use a sword?

oh by the way. You think people in BJJ don't know how to strike?

 

[FriedRice]

Again though there's that proviso which is there with all martial arts....it's how you train that matters. I have seen some pretty sloppy Muay Thai fighters and the places they train at. It's not necessarily superior, it very much depends on the person using it....as we keep saying on all the other style v style threads! MT fighters rarely get in the ring with 'pure' boxers though do they?

'Conversations' in the style v style vein are frustration because of it depending so much on the fighter rather than the style. In MMA being honest it matters less what style your stand up or groundwork is than whether you can make it work against your opponent, and having that skill that you also have the heart to fight. All the skills in the world won't help if you don't have the fighter's heart.

It's not just the fighter. It's the fighter, the style and the coaching. There are sloppy MT fighters, but there are way more sloppy whatever else fighters. Most people who sets out to become UFC Fighters, rarely take the route other than the base of BJJ + Muay Thai with Boxing + Wrestling as secondary styles.

Base in other styles can work, but it's rare. MT fighters rarely get in the with pure Boxers is usually because Boxers don't want to get kicked.

 

[FriedRice]

What gets me is that fighting on the ground is nothing new. Kids do it from early ages with horse playing. People fought on the ground during wars, or when they are attacked on the roads. Greeks practice wrestling even though they had shields and long spears. So when history shows us things that are involved in hand to hand combat, why do so many think that a system that was used in combat is void of valid grappling techniques? Even in WWI soliders were taught grappling techniques and hand to hand techniques even though they had guns, bomb, planes, and chemical warfare. Do you really think there was less grappling in war as we go back in time before guns? or more? Do you actually think that soldiers back then only knew how to kick, punch, and use a sword?

If you think that that evolution of BJJ for the past 25 years since UFC 1 is akin to kids fighting on the ground, then you're quite ignorant. Grappling in warfare, usually also involves weapons, so a great grappler of that time can still get killed by some peasant soldier who's sucked at grappling. We are obviously talking about unarmed combat in modern times.

Many TMA'ists used to say during the early days of the UFC that it was just a fad. Well, it's been 25 years now and I just came back from my MMA gym, where the kid's BJJ class had about 20 kids in the 1st class and 15 in the 2nd kid's class (competition). The adult's beginner BJJ had around 15 and the all levels BJJ, it was around 30-35. This is an average day, and BJJ is 6 days/week in the mornings and evenings with other classes such as MT, Self Defense, Boxing, Conditioning, etc. It costs $160/month to train 3 classes /week with a 1 year contract and this school has been around since 1996.

 

[FriedRice]

oh by the way. You think people in BJJ don't know how to strike?

If you think that the majority of BJJ only people can strike well, then that just says a lot about your own striking skills.

 

[kuniggety]

Muay Boran? That's like going to BJJ for striking techniques.

Muay Boran isn't/wasn't a martial art. It's very often misused. All of the old school Thai martial arts are collectively referred to as Muay Boran. The sport Muay Thai, on top of pulling techniques from a variety of Muay Boran arts, had influences from Western boxing and judo. Grappling is a fundamental part of it. Rolling around on the ground like wrestling and BJJ? No, but gripping someone, pulling them into a clinch, and throwing them are.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Probably not enough though.

I don't think it will be as extensive, unless they were able to take part of the grappling and used it as a training tool. I'll have to see if there is a thai wrestling sport out there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This one is for you Drop Bear. Not exactly from Today's Thailand so I'll have to do some research to see how when the martial art was created and if it was during a time period where Thailand rule covered more area.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you think that the majority of BJJ only people can strike well, then that just says a lot about your own striking skills.

lol. I guess you haven't seen my videos. You definitely haven't sparred with me, because my sparring partners would tell you differently.

Just because someone knows BJJ doesn't mean they lack the skills or ability to punch your lights out.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you think that that evolution of BJJ for the past 25 years since UFC 1 is akin to kids fighting on the ground, then you're quite ignorant.

My point is that if kids are fighting on the ground then the act of fighting on the ground is nothing new. UFC didn't invent ground fighting. BJJ didn't event ground fighting. If you think that people fought in wars without ever fighting on the ground, or that the law enforcers of that time never had to fight on the ground, then that's your ignorance. I can't help that you think no human has ever had to fight on the ground until UFC and that UFC is the ultimate test of ground fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

lol. I guess you haven't seen my videos. You definitely haven't sparred with me, because my sparring partners would tell you differently.

Just because someone knows BJJ doesn't mean they lack the skills or ability to punch your lights out.

 

[Tez3]

There will always be an advantage in training more grappling than the other guy. Or more striking

Actually, no there isn't because a fighter has to have more than one fight and they can't go on just fighting people who they have one advantage over. A fighter can't just train one style more than another, they have to be able to fight whoever otherwise they will never get title fights etc, they will be stuck fighting just one type of person. The advantages fighters have is in preparing for a fight, knowing their opponent and working out tactics and getting their prefight training worked out. There is no advantage though in training one style more than another, other fighters will know this and work out their plans accordingly so if you train striking more your opponent will work his tactic out so they do more groundwork, you see it's not an advantage really. Far better to be well rounded and as good at everything as you can be so you are never surprised or outflanked.

It's not just the fighter. It's the fighter, the style and the coaching. There are sloppy MT fighters, but there are way more sloppy whatever else fighters. Most people who sets out to become UFC Fighters, rarely take the route other than the base of BJJ + Muay Thai with Boxing + Wrestling as secondary styles.

Base in other styles can work, but it's rare. MT fighters rarely get in the with pure Boxers is usually because Boxers don't want to get kicked.

No, there aren't more sloppy fighters from other styles, not sure why you would say that. You cannot base all your opinion on one promotion. Unless you have seen multiple promotions and thousands of fighters you can't call it like that. Until recently fighters didn't set out to be 'UFC' fighters ( not sure whether you mean MMA fighters here, you seem to confuse MMA and UFC) it's still relatively new so people were coming into MMA from a variety of backgrounds. Many fighters came from a TMA background, MT has been available for a while but only recently has become popular. Likewise BJJ, many fighters I know came from a Judo background, wrestling is still a rarity in the UK. Most French fighters I know are from a Judo background as that is a very strong sport in France. BJJ is becoming more widespread here and in Europe as more train and become instructors but Judo is still ahead in numbers. Wrestling again is a rarity, though popular in Eastern Europe as well as the Middle Eastern countries like Iran.

 

[Buka]

What gets me is that fighting on the ground is nothing new. Kids do it from early ages with horse playing. People fought on the ground during wars, or when they are attacked on the roads. Greeks practice wrestling even though they had shields and long spears. So when history shows us things that are involved in hand to hand combat, why do so many think that a system that was used in combat is void of valid grappling techniques? Even in WWI soliders were taught grappling techniques and hand to hand techniques even though they had guns, bomb, planes, and chemical warfare. Do you really think there was less grappling in war as we go back in time before guns? or more? Do you actually think that soldiers back then only knew how to kick, punch, and use a sword?

I'm just nitpicking here, not remarking on your post in general. My dad fought in WW1 (U.S. Army) We had many conversations about his training in boot camp. (I was already into the Arts) He related that it was brief at best, they just wanted them all pushed through boot camp as fast as possible and onto the front lines.

The U.S. involvement in World War one started a hair shy of one hundred years ago. Damn, I'm fricken old.

 

[Tez3]

The U.S. involvement in World War one started a hair shy of one hundred years ago.

We have had commemorations here since 2014, which is when the war started. Next year will be the culmination of them as the ending of the war.


Off topic I know....but does anyone think it would be worth us on MT doing something next year to commemorate the end of the war? It affected so much of the world and the events such as the Second World War that followed as a consequence. I will start a new thread if anyone thinks it's something we could do, rather than derail this one.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

We have had commemorations here since 2014, which is when the war started. Next year will be the culmination of them as the ending of the war.


Off topic I know....but does anyone think it would be worth us on MT doing something next year to commemorate the end of the war? It affected so much of the world and the events such as the Second World War that followed as a consequence. I will start a new thread if anyone thinks it's something we could do, rather than derail this one.

Definitely a topic for a different thread, but did you have something specific in mind?

 

[Tez3]

Definitely a topic for a different thread, but did you have something specific in mind?

Not at the moment but people here are pretty inventive, I'll post up a new thread in a couple of days, have a full weekend ahead so pretty busy at the moment.

 

[FriedRice]

Muay Boran isn't/wasn't a martial art. It's very often misused. All of the old school Thai martial arts are collectively referred to as Muay Boran. The sport Muay Thai, on top of pulling techniques from a variety of Muay Boran arts, had influences from Western boxing and judo. Grappling is a fundamental part of it. Rolling around on the ground like wrestling and BJJ? No, but gripping someone, pulling them into a clinch, and throwing them are.

Well this is just getting overly picky. Like saying that "Kung-Fu" just means "hard work" or whatever and it should be called Wushu, or whatever instead. There are Muay Boran schools that rolls around, albeit sloppily, on the ground like BJJ...but they still do it it and call themselves Muay Boran.