Most bad techniques are bad because you're bad at them

[skribs]

It is not the point.

We don't know if the crooks being wrist locked are really resisting.

Some people don't.

So police wrist lock crooks is not good evidence.

I have a question. If I write a book set in a world where nobody resists arrest, do I owe you royalties for coming up with the idea? Or is it generic enough that it could be public domain?

 

[drop bear]

I have a question. If I write a book set in a world where nobody resists arrest, do I owe you royalties for coming up with the idea? Or is it generic enough that it could be public domain?

Depends if it is a fantasy world where every martial arts technique works.

 

[skribs]

Depends if it is a fantasy world where every martial arts technique works.

Is this the fantasy world where I said "every martial arts technique works"? You know, the fantasy world where you've misquoted me and repeatedly ignored my corrections?

 

[Martial D]

1. There aren't a whole lot of moves that are widely taught that don't work. If they don't work, it's more likely that you don't know how to properly apply them. (There are moves like no-touch that are pretty much bogus, but most techniques, concepts, or training methods will work if correctly applied).

This does read like a claim that everything contained within a martial art 'works' (aside from chi balls).

For there to not be a 'whole lot' that doesn't work, given the scope of the combined syllabii of every martial art we have, would leave the greater majority of all of it as effective.

 

[skribs]

This does read like a claim that everything contained within a martial art 'works' (aside from chi balls).

For there to not be a 'whole lot' that doesn't work, given the scope of the combined syllabii of every martial art we have, would leave the greater majority of all of it as effective.

The important part is the last part of what I said - "if correctly applied". That goes for not just the techniques, but the concepts and training methods as well. If a training method is not correctly applied, then the training method is flawed. For example,

• Techniques: Cartwheel kick. If you do not know how to cartwheel or how to set up this kick, it is flawed.
• Concepts: Escape a wrist grab by pulling thumb-to-thumb. I gave the example earlier that the concept was not understood by the MMA fighters, and because the concept was not correctly applied, it did not work.
• Training Methods: 1-punch drills. If they do not escalate in resistance, then 1-punch drills are not correctly applied.

Another key phrase is "widely taught." Not things that are fringe techniques or "Rex Kwon Do" type of moves.

Something I have learned from watching videos from many arts, in addition to training from my own classes, is there are a lot of things that seem like they don't work until you understand them completely. For example, the first time I saw a cross-arm Z-lock in hapkido, I thought "that's fake." Then my Master performed the same lock on me, and I quickly realized it wasn't fake. Over the course of my hapkido training, I've experienced several similar moments:

1. A technique that "doesn't work" until I learn the proper footwork. (Using my footwork to do the dirty work for me works in most cases).
2. A technique that I "can't get the right grip" until I learn other ways to do it. (For example, I couldn't get a grip on a V-lock because my chest was in the way, so I just pushed with my chest instead of my hand).
3. Finishing moves that "don't work" until I can learn which angles I need to be at for which grips I have.

Every new technique that my Master teaches me is something that "doesn't work" or is "more complicated than it needs to be" or is "not as effective as an earlier technique", until I learn how to properly apply it. In fact, today I learned some of my blue belt stuff (out of 7 belts, I'm 2 away from black belt), but I also learned several things about our white belt techniques. It's humbling and empowering at the same time.

Coming back to your point, my original concept isn't so much about the moves themselves, but the attitudes towards them. If I gave up on these techniques before I learned how to correctly use them, then I would not have learned them. Or, if I would have looked at other martial arts and scoffed at their techniques, I wouldn't have learned things in these types of discussions.

 

[drop bear]

Is this the fantasy world where I said "every martial arts technique works"? You know, the fantasy world where you've misquoted me and repeatedly ignored my corrections?

Ok. So Maby this will be explained better.

I say every technique works from head kicks to chiballs to yelling Ada kadava at people.

And those who say they don't just don't understand the technique.

Or didn't do it in the right context.

By your argument this statement is correct. Because your argument does not have a way to determine what works from what doesn't.

 

[drop bear]

Concepts: Escape a wrist grab by pulling thumb-to-thumb. I gave the example earlier that the concept was not understood by the MMA fighters, and because the concept was not correctly applied, it did not work.

Sorry what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't understand dogma.

This is a police cuffing training video where suspects just do what they are told.

Which proves precisely what?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Conner McGregor cuffed without any intervention.

14:39

So, it appears you're arguing the cuffing can be done without the locks. Which I agree with. See, you're arguing senselessly. I never said the locks were necessary. I said they can work.

EDIT: I can show you people being KO'd without using kicks. What does that say about kicks? Nothing, really.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This does read like a claim that everything contained within a martial art 'works' (aside from chi balls).

For there to not be a 'whole lot' that doesn't work, given the scope of the combined syllabii of every martial art we have, would leave the greater majority of all of it as effective.

I think part of the issue is defining what we mean by "work". I think this is where a lot of these get off the rails, because some folks just assume the same meaning is used, and argue what they think is said, regardless of what was meant.

Nearly every technique I've seen can work. There's a significant body of them I don't consider reliable, and another significant body (with significant overlap) that I don't think are often available. But they do work, when the circumstances are right. Do they deserve a place as a pocket technique? Probably not.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sorry what?

I didn't see any of those applied properly by the subject (Karen), even in the static version. She hadn't really learned any of them well enough to apply them (and I'm not convinced some of them are reliable). She was right, she needs a lot more practice.

And this highlights why dynamic resistance is necessary.

 

[drop bear]

So, it appears you're arguing the cuffing can be done without the locks. Which I agree with. See, you're arguing senselessly. I never said the locks were necessary. I said they can work.

EDIT: I can show you people being KO'd without using kicks. What does that say about kicks? Nothing, really.

It has to work better than random chance though. To be considered a move that works.

That was the point of the dice.

Wrist locks work.
Dowsing works
Rolling a 6 works.
Dance battles work.

The hand stand kick works consistently.

That is how you identify a good technique from a bad one.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't see any of those applied properly by the subject (Karen), even in the static version. She hadn't really learned any of them well enough to apply them (and I'm not convinced some of them are reliable). She was right, she needs a lot more practice.

And this highlights why dynamic resistance is necessary.

Does the other guy appear to understand the principles of grab escapes?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It has to work better than random chance though. To be considered a move that works.

That was the point of the dice.

Wrist locks work.
Dowsing works
Rolling a 6 works.
Dance battles work.

The hand stand kick works consistently.

That is how you identify a good technique from a bad one.

Yeah, but you have to define both "works" and what you mean by "random chance". See, nobody is actually cuffed by random chance. Someone cuffs them. Does the wrist lock help? Dunno, and that's not a claim I made (which is why your whole dowsing and random chance statements are so funny).

As for the hand stand kicks, your confirmation bias is adorable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Does the other guy appear to understand the principles of grab escapes?

Perhaps. He seemed to execute them reasonably well. Can't really tell if he did that by good mimicry or actually understood the principles. We can't tell in those videos if he's actually teaching the principles or not.

In any case, it comes down to the same problem as previously: the person trying to do the thing doesn't seem to understand it, so they don't get to see if the technique would work or not.

To be clear, these can work, but most aren't likely to be available once someone starts dragging you. If you get a chance to create slack, they work nicely. But with the tension of the pulling, you need an entry...or just a different solution. I see them as solutions in the middle of grappling, not during dragging - reasonable hand-fighting tools.

 

[Buka]

This does read like a claim that everything contained within a martial art 'works' (aside from chi balls).

For there to not be a 'whole lot' that doesn't work, given the scope of the combined syllabii of every martial art we have, would leave the greater majority of all of it as effective.

Wait, what? Chi Balls don't work?

Nooooooooooo!

 

[Buka]

I haven't been around a non compliant, crazy drunk being handcuffed in, oh, eighteen, maybe nineteen hours now.

So I'll just take everybody's word for it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Wait, what? Chi Balls don't work?

Nooooooooooo!

Nah, they do. Point them in someones direction to channel your chi and they'll fly backwards. Doesn't work if technology is around (radiowaves interfere with the energy particles let off by chi), so unfortunately you can't get a video of it, but trust me, it works.

 

[Martial D]

Wait, what? Chi Balls don't work?

Nooooooooooo!

Not if I have my big toe raised they don't.

I got special shoes for that. I'm practically invincible now.

 

[Buka]

Nah, they do. Point them in someones direction to channel your chi and they'll fly backwards. Doesn't work if technology is around (radiowaves interfere with the energy particles let off by chi), so unfortunately you can't get a video of it, but trust me, it works.

I did that once, but the guy had a better base than I did so you can guess what happened. I was the one who flew backwards, right into a group of Hari Krishner. I got all Guru Rama-ed up. But I will say I do look rather spiffy in orange.