Most bad techniques are bad because you're bad at them

[drop bear]

well yes, but if someone is trying to put you in a wrist lock, you should be concentrating a 100%, what else have you got to think about hats more important

it seems a good fact that wrist locks against someone who is a good bit stronger than you are extremely difficult to both apply and if you do apply, to maintain

Where as if you did that with chokes.you would get a much better result.

I guess some techniques are just better than others.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Was the audience filled with martial artists, or was it the general public?

Both. If you know that your opponent will only use joint lock on you, since you don't have to worry about his kick and punch, you can interrupt his power generation during the initial stage.

 

[skribs]

I can't take in to account evidence that isn't there.

It is there, you've just rejected it. You're purposefully ignoring large amounts of reality to make your point.

 

[skribs]

You really can't find any videos of cops managing a wrist lock?

He doesn't believe in video evidence. In the eye-poke discussion, he saw a bunch of guys get poked in the eyes and stop fighting, and said there was no evidence of eye pokes stopping a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Probably can. So random cops on random guys means wristlocks work?

Do dance battles work?

It means they work sometimes. Just like one guy making those kicks work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had an unfortunate incident a couple of years or so ago, where two cops, were trying to put me in wrist lock/ arm twist to put me on the floor, they failed misably for a good five minutes, till a third cop appeared and lifted me up by the ankles, and on the floor I went,, they still couldn't get my arms up my back

Yeah, I see videos of them often trying to use locks where it's not really a good idea. I'd mostly expect them to work with passive resistance (not "fighting back", just making it hard to cuff them) - active resistance presents too small a window for them to be reliable. Maybe if someone practices them a ton, they'd be able to get them in more often, but I've only known a few cops who trained locks that much, and even they didn't rely on them in that kind of chaos.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well yes, but if someone is trying to put you in a wrist lock, you should be concentrating a 100%, what else have you got to think about hats more important

it seems a good fact that wrist locks against someone who is a good bit stronger than you are extremely difficult to both apply and if you do apply, to maintain

They do work against stronger people, but only in a VERY limited window, in my experience. Not usually worth the fiddling at that point.

 

[drop bear]

It means they work sometimes. Just like one guy making those kicks work.

One guy who can make those kicks work consistently.

Vs what is again random chance. Like dowsing.

 

[drop bear]

It is there, you've just rejected it. You're purposefully ignoring large amounts of reality to make your point.

Ok. So same deal with GPseymor. It has to be better than random chance.

I am purposely ignoring a whole bunch of variables that put the results out. And ignoring evidence that we don't really know what the situation is.

So a random policeman wristlocking a random crook has too many unknowns to make a conclusion.

 

[drop bear]

So as an explanation. Here is evidence that when I roll dice I roll 6s

So therefore my method of rolling dice is valid.

This is the same as a random cop putting a random crook in a wristlock. And saying their technique works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can also find videos of dowsing.

So I guess science is wrong.

Any videos of dowsing working against a resisting offender? Or are you maybe just drawing a false equivalency?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So as an explanation. Here is evidence that when I roll dice I roll 6s

So therefore my method of rolling dice is valid.

This is the same as a random cop putting a random crook in a wristlock. And saying their technique works.

No, that's evidence that rolling those dice can produce 6's. Which is the same as a wristlock working.

See, you seem to think I (or anyone else) is saying wristlocks work a lot of the time. I haven't said that, and haven't seen anyone else say it. What I have pointed out is that they've been used successfully on quite a number of occasions. Meaning the wristlocks actually worked. You ramble on about "random chance", as if those suspects might otherwise have been randomly cuffed without any intervention. Which is pure bullocks. And you actually know it is, which makes it also dishonest.

 

[drop bear]

Any videos of dowsing working against a resisting offender? Or are you maybe just drawing a false equivalency?

Dowsing doesn't work in a double blind test.

But anecdotally it does work. There are videos of it working on you tube.

The equivalence is that the method you use to prove wrist locks work also proves dowsing works.

And the OP is using bad science to make his case.

 

[drop bear]

No, that's evidence that rolling those dice can produce 6's. Which is the same as a wristlock working.

See, you seem to think I (or anyone else) is saying wristlocks work a lot of the time. I haven't said that, and haven't seen anyone else say it. What I have pointed out is that they've been used successfully on quite a number of occasions. Meaning the wristlocks actually worked. You ramble on about "random chance", as if those suspects might otherwise have been randomly cuffed without any intervention. Which is pure bullocks. And you actually know it is, which makes it also dishonest.

Suspects have been randomly cuffed with no intervention.

This happens all the time. Police just tell you to put your hands behind your back. And people do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Suspects have been randomly cuffed with no intervention.

You talk about dogma from time to time. When you start on something like this, you are easily the most dogmatic person I've talked to about martial arts.

 

[Anarax]

Great post, your analysis is insightful. I want to add something to your comment below.

I may train mostly with forms and 1-steps, while you train primarily with a heavy bag and sparring. None of us are wrong, we just have different ways of learning and applying what we learn.

The training methods we use will shape the way we'll react in an altercation. A practitioner that only trains forms and 1-steps and doesn't pressure test(sparring, live drills, etc) will not have be as effective in an altercation than the one who spars. Sparring doesn't have to be 100% to achieve combat effectiveness, but you need a non-compliant partner to hone your combative skills.

The debate of "right" and "wrong" techniques seems endless and tedious. However, economy of motion and kinesology are dynamics that go beyond opinions and preferences. For example, a kicking defense technique in a style I studied was dropping back into a deep dragon stance while parring the kick down with you hands going back. That technique requires a tremendous amount of time, energy and movement to pull off, it also puts the defender in a postilion where he couldn't counter-attack. Was he wrong to do so? No. Is the technique wrong? No, but there are other kick defense techniques that require less movement, will inflict trauma to your opponent and will set you up for a counter-attack. Essentially, you can do more with less.

 

[drop bear]

You talk about dogma from time to time. When you start on something like this, you are easily the most dogmatic person I've talked to about martial arts.

You don't understand dogma.

This is a police cuffing training video where suspects just do what they are told.

 

[drop bear]

You talk about dogma from time to time. When you start on something like this, you are easily the most dogmatic person I've talked to about martial arts.

Conner McGregor cuffed without any intervention.

14:39

 

[skribs]

You don't understand dogma.

This is a police cuffing training video where suspects just do what they are told.

What would you have the police do with a compliant suspect? Choke them out and break their arm?

 

[drop bear]

What would you have the police do with a compliant suspect? Choke them out and break their arm?

It is not the point.

We don't know if the crooks being wrist locked are really resisting.

Some people don't.

So police wrist lock crooks is not good evidence.