Most bad techniques are bad because you're bad at them

[skribs]

Ok so with the cartwheel kick. I am Choosing to accept repeatable success by a top fighter against top fighters who are fighting back that I can see and track as fact. Over "cops do wristlocks"

And you have an issue with that?

Yeah, I do. Because you're rejecting a ton of real-world success because it doesn't happen in your arena.

If I were to follow your logic, I'd have to reject all kicks to the leg, punches to the face, and all grabs, because I do World Taekwondo, and in WT those techniques are ineffective.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, I do. Because you're rejecting a ton of real-world success because it doesn't happen in your arena.

If I were to follow your logic, I'd have to reject all kicks to the leg, punches to the face, and all grabs, because I do World Taekwondo, and in WT those techniques are ineffective.

you perhaps missing the irony, dowsing , may work , on the Ballance of probebilities , 1 times in a 100 , but the people who witnessed that are convinced that it works, because it been seen to work and go around telling people it works

 

[Buka]

I watch MMA and boxing. I see a whole bunch of really nice right hands thrown and land.

I see MMA fighters get their opponents back, put a rear naked choke on. Sometimes the choke slips off, other times the opponent escapes it.

Does that mean that right hands and rear naked chokes don't work?

 

[Flying Crane]

I generally agree with the premise of this thread.

However, I do not believe that the founders and ancestors who created and developed and evolved our systems into what they are today were perfect. They did make mistakes, and some things that found a place in some systems are really bad ideas and make little sense.

Once a person has gained some level of experience in their training, it is perfectly appropriate to make some judgements and identify that there is some material that is bunk. Weeding that stuff out can be a good thing.

Adding material is not the only good way to evolve a system, and sometimes can be a mistake.

Deleting some material can also be a good move. Some things really are not worth wasting anybody’s time with. Training time is precious, it should not be wasted trying to get bad ideas to work.

 

[skribs]

I generally agree with the premise of this thread.

However, I do not believe that the founders and ancestors who created and developed and evolved our systems into what they are today were perfect. They did make mistakes, and some things that found a place in some systems are really bad ideas and make little sense.

Once a person has gained some level of experience in their training, it is perfectly appropriate to make some judgements and identify that there is some material that is bunk. Weeding that stuff out can be a good thing.

Adding material is not the only good way to evolve a system, and sometimes can be a mistake.

Deleting some material can also be a good move. Some things really are not worth wasting anybody’s time with. Training time is precious, it should not be wasted trying to get bad ideas to work.

I would also argue that there are some things that work, that are not necessary in a martial arts system. I've had talks with @gpseymour about this before, when he discussed designing his curriculum. There's a lot of things he knows that he did not put into it, because it wasn't necessary to teach what he wanted.

This is why a boxer doesn't train kicks or grappling, because it is not necessary for what he does in the ring.

It's the same as virtually any hobby.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Maybe not covered, but there is some merit in this:


What is the point in learning something you cant do? If a martial art is comprised of activities you cannot physically do, it is worthless for yourself.

I swear there is a proverb for something like this.

But there is a opposition in similar line to it, that you think you are doing something wrong is why you think it doesn't work and you doubt your ability not the actual technique itself, which can be flawed. In general with these things, some things dont work and you think its yourself and your ability not the thing in question, many areas of life are like this.

More of a response to the theme of your thread than its actual content however, or the literal point raised in the title.


Also the palm strike one is news to me, the only point i saw for a palm strike is, it puts your hand in danger as does a punch. (which is true) and generally might have a little less stopping power to it. Never seen someone say its bad because you can hurt your hand unlike a punch, rather you can hurt your hand in both and a punch has more stopping power. Different ways you can hurt it, you basically risk damage no matter what you do.

Doesn't mean it hasn't happened just haven't seen it.


Also the context for many things isnt addressed, it makes bad techniques look like they work and good techniques look like they dont work. I dont recall seeing the bulk videos of you tube really explaining the context of something which seems to be a issue in martial arts, the context is left out when it should be included. thats the running issue with most systema videos, no one has explained the context in it, so you cant really form a proper opinion until you learn the context, its conjecture basically.

No fault of a observing party it is the making party not explaining the context clearly enough or at all. (either out of not knowing it, their audience not being laymen but people who do their style or just forgetfulness/lapse of thinking based on their audience) how ever if they have any experience they are going to use what they learnt from that to try and make something work with how they learnt how to do it or in the context they learn it in if none is present or clearly relayed.

 

[Buka]

Maybe not covered, but there is some merit in this:


What is the point in learning something you cant do? If a martial art is comprised of activities you cannot physically do, it is worthless for yourself.

Actually, Rat, in some circumstances there is.

I used to run a large fighting school. There were a lot of young, athletic guys who learned and utilized all the advanced kicks. You name it, they threw it, and more importantly, they landed them with great regularity. And this was a contact dojo.

Some of the other students weren't athletic at all. Others were older. But they would learn every nuance of, let's say for example, a jump spinning back kick. Even though they themselves would never be able to throw it while sparring. They would pay particular attention to those that used it the best, the most, the nastiest if you will. Not just to defend against it, not to block it or evade it, deflect it or thwart it.

They would study it in order to shove it right up the keister of the kicker to either crash him to the ground or punch his lights in mid kick. Which they did with equal regularity. And if you looked closely, they did it with a surreptitious smile.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

get hold of a training partner, tell him your going to put him in a wrist lock and say you give him 50$ if you fail. that should ensure a good level of resistance and if your correct won't cost you any money at all

Someone had given a public demo to ask audience to apply any kind of joint lock on him. Many audiences tried, none of them can apply joint lock on him.

Why did that happen? The answer is simple. If you concentrate 100% on defense, your opponent's offense will not work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is the point in learning something you cant do? If a martial art is comprised of activities you cannot physically do, it is worthless for yourself.

"Can't do" is a relative term, in the context of this discussion. There are things done every day in the average Aikido dojo, some of which I don't think are actually likely to be available in an actual fight. Can you do them? Sure: go to a dojo. Some folks just love the work of developing the movement, without really caring whether it has fighting application or not. And some of the things they'll never find available in a fight, they can still apply those principles in the chaos of combat, but not via those movements.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, I do. Because you're rejecting a ton of real-world success because it doesn't happen in your arena.

If I were to follow your logic, I'd have to reject all kicks to the leg, punches to the face, and all grabs, because I do World Taekwondo, and in WT those techniques are ineffective.

I can't take in to account evidence that isn't there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is the point in learning something you cant do?

I had asked my teacher the same question when he said that everything he taught me won't work on him.

If you have "ability", your opponent's skill will not work on you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so with the cartwheel kick. I am Choosing to accept repeatable success by a top fighter against top fighters who are fighting back that I can see and track as fact. Over "cops do wristlocks"

And you have an issue with that?

So one guy makes something work, and you decide it's workable. A bunch of guys make something work, and it's not reliable?

 

[drop bear]

Do you have any times when that laser eyes move has worked?

I have literally made it clear in this thread that I do not think everything works. I have specifically stated "most techniques" and not "all techniques". However, you are doing to me the same thing you do with your argument. You're picking which facts you agree with and which facts you reject. In this case, you're rejecting that I said "most" and adding in that I must mean "all".

I never said dousing works. You just assumed I did. I never said all techniques work. I don't know how you can assume I did, when I specifically did not.

Yeah. Laser eyes worked dozens of times. Even seen cops use them.

How do know dowsing doesn't work? Maby you just are not very good at it.

 

[drop bear]

So one guy makes something work, and you decide it's workable. A bunch of guys make something work, and it's not reliable?

Which bunch of guys?

Show me where they made it work.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which bunch of guys?

Show me where they made it work.

You really can't find any videos of cops managing a wrist lock?

 

[drop bear]

You really can't find any videos of cops managing a wrist lock?

Probably can. So random cops on random guys means wristlocks work?

Do dance battles work?

 

[jobo]

You really can't find any videos of cops managing a wrist lock?

I had an unfortunate incident a couple of years or so ago, where two cops, were trying to put me in wrist lock/ arm twist to put me on the floor, they failed misably for a good five minutes, till a third cop appeared and lifted me up by the ankles, and on the floor I went,, they still couldn't get my arms up my back

 

[jobo]

Someone had given a public demo to ask audience to apply any kind of joint lock on him. Many audiences tried, none of them can apply joint lock on him.

Why did that happen? The answer is simple. If you concentrate 100% on defense, your opponent's offense will not work.

well yes, but if someone is trying to put you in a wrist lock, you should be concentrating a 100%, what else have you got to think about hats more important

it seems a good fact that wrist locks against someone who is a good bit stronger than you are extremely difficult to both apply and if you do apply, to maintain

 

[drop bear]

You really can't find any videos of cops managing a wrist lock?

I can also find videos of dowsing.

So I guess science is wrong.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Someone had given a public demo to ask audience to apply any kind of joint lock on him. Many audiences tried, none of them can apply joint lock on him.

Why did that happen? The answer is simple. If you concentrate 100% on defense, your opponent's offense will not work.

Was the audience filled with martial artists, or was it the general public?