More optimal martial arts competition rules.

[karatechud]

The sports competition rule sets of some martial arts (karate/taekwondo/BJJ, etc.) are often criticised for promoting strategies that could be counter productive in a self-defense scenario.

I'm curious if there are rules of any martial arts sport formats that people would change to make it more applicable to self defense scenarios.

 

[skribs]

Hi @karatechud, welcome to Martial Talk. I'm someone who is 3rd degree black belt in TKD and working towards 4th, and am currently training BJJ (getting ready for a competition in 1 week) and Muay Thai.

First, I'd like to separate TKD from BJJ. The point systems in both serve different goals. The point system in Olympic-style TKD is to reward the person with the most difficult strikes (spinning kicks, head kicks, or better yet - spinning head kicks). It's a sport that doesn't try to ground itself in a self-defense scenario, but rather to reward points for the most difficult strikes to land. BJJ scores points for actions and positions that are advantageous in a real fight. BJJ is criticized for pulling guard, but pulling guard scores no points. Take-downs, passing guard, sweeping from guard, and dominant positions of knee-on-belly, mount, back, and back mount are what score.

Second, we've actually seen a few developments to your point. Karate Combat and Combat Jiu-Jitsu are aimed at including striking and grappling together. We've also recently had the Muay Thai Development League with NHC (No Head Contact) and LHC (Light Head Contact) brackets. This is something I'm actually interested in looking into more after my next BJJ competition. I don't like the idea of giving or receiving a concussion, so this seems like a great league. This is a points-based league that actually moves away from the "applicable to self defense scenarios" and moves more towards "safer for someone who has to go to work the next morning".

Third, we have MMA. MMA is pretty much the closest we can get to a sport format that mirrors real-life fighting. Unless you want to add in weapons, and then HEMA or Kali is going to be your choice. We've also recently seen full-on self-defense competitions from Martial Arts Journey on Youtube, but those are very elaborate productions that are expensive to replicate.

Personally, I want BJJ and TKD to stay relatively where they are. I like that the Muay Thai Development League is moving in that direction, because with less focus on knockouts I'm actually interested in trying it. I don't think they're perfect, but I don't think it's possible to be perfect.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The sports competition rule sets of some martial arts (karate/taekwondo/BJJ, etc.) are often criticised for promoting strategies that could be counter productive in a self-defense scenario.

I'm curious if there are rules of any martial arts sport formats that people would change to make it more applicable to self defense scenarios.

This sounds like a bot. The question makes no sense to me. To clarify the (lack of) logic, let's put the issue into a more exaggerated form:

- Wrestling has rules that are counter-productive in boxing. How can the rules be changed to make it more applicable to boxing? -

No need to change wrestling rules. Just practice boxing!

IMO, case closed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm curious if there are rules of any martial arts sport formats that people would change to make it more applicable to self defense scenarios.

How badly do you intend to hurt your opponent in self-defense?

 

[drop bear]

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The sports competition rule sets of some martial arts (karate/taekwondo/BJJ, etc.) are often criticised for promoting strategies that could be counter productive in a self-defense scenario.

There are 2 terms that both me the most, "internal" and "self-defense".

Those who train in

- sport are all bad people.
- self-defense are all good people.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

View attachment 32773

Sport (MMA) is bad. Self-defense is good. We should all do self-defense instead.

 

[Holmejr]

Everybody sees this differently. I just finished watching UFC Friday night fights. They all ended in TKO or decision. No bjj to speak of.
Street self defense IMO isn’t sparing. If someone is physically threatening you, you typically don’t step back 4 feet, break into your fighting stance and kiai. When needed you act explosively in a second from where you are. Save a few, most MA’s teach groin kicks, bone breaking, rear naked chokes, eye jabs, etc.
I say keep the fun in sports, just violent enough to bring out the Neanderthal in us.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

The sports competition rule sets of some martial arts (karate/taekwondo/BJJ, etc.) are often criticised for promoting strategies that could be counter productive in a self-defense scenario.

By whom? I imagine one would have to speak from a standing of great authority to make such a judgement ()

 

[skribs]

This sounds like a bot. The question makes no sense to me. To clarify the (lack of) logic, let's put the issue into a more exaggerated form:

- Wrestling has rules that are counter-productive in boxing. How can the rules be changed to make it more applicable to boxing? -

No need to change wrestling rules. Just practice boxing!

IMO, case closed.

It is very, very common for people to criticize point-focused sports as not being effective. To pretend the criticism isn't common is either gaslighting or sticking your head in the sand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you train self-defense, you probably won't train how to counter:

- single leg,
- double legs,
- hip throw,
- leg twist,
- pull guard,
- jump guard,
- roundhouse kick,
- flying knee,
- flying side kick,
- spin hook kick,
- ...

because your opponent will be an untrained person who doesn't have those attacking skills. Do you really want to replace your sport training with self-defense training? What kind of MA skill should a 4th SD degree black belt have?

 

[Buka]

Well, aren’t we all a bunch of smarty pants.
I think everyone should train like me and buy me dinner every night. And a nice bottle of Chianti. And make sure you leave a big tip.

Train whatever you want. Enjoy the experience as much as you can because it goes by faster and faster every year.

Everyone else can go clackledock themselves.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It is very, very common for people to criticize point-focused sports as not being effective.

You misunderstand the context of my post. I did not infer the above. In fact, I believe a good chunk of point karate/TKD can be applied to self-defense. Let's get back to the OP that I responded to:

I'm curious if there are rules of any martial arts sport formats that people would change to make it more applicable to self defense scenarios.

What I question is, why would you change the sport to give it another main purpose (i.e. self-defense)? Isn't it better to practice self-defense application which already exists? Wouldn't changing the focus of the sport to accomplish two separate goals just water it down, changing it into a hybrid? Sport MA has its rules for a reason - to make the sport more effective, more conducive to fair and safe competition and to provide entertainment. Changing those rules so the sport can be used for non-sport would undermine them and negatively affect the sport.

Some people are non-competitive and have little/no interest in fighting. They practice TMA mainly for the "do," only wanting to follow a path to better physical and spiritual health, self-discipline and the like. Should we change their way to make it more effective for sport? This is the hidden root issue the OP brings up.

For the best development of do, follow the path of do. For effective self-defense, practice the principles of close-in combat against common attacks one may expect. For good sport, follow the rules that enhance it. There is some natural overlap to be sure, but karate cannot be all things at the same time. That's why there are schools that are competition oriented, others that emphasize self-development and others that focus on jutsu self-defense. This is how modern TMA has evolved.

I hope you can now understand my first (much shorter) post after this longer detailed version. "Case closed."

 

[skribs]

What I question is, why would you change the sport to give it another main purpose (i.e. self-defense)? Isn't it better to practice self-defense application which already exists?

No this is exactly what I'm referring to. The idea is that competition is what breeds excellence, so competing with the self-defense techniques is what helps hone them.

I agree with you that it's possible to spar with most of your techniques and then drill a few specific others that you don't want to spar with (i.e. 12-6 elbows). But I think it's folly to think that the argument that martial sports should resemble a real fight is unique to this one OP.

 

[HighKick]

You misunderstand the context of my post. I did not infer the above. In fact, I believe a good chunk of point karate/TKD can be applied to self-defense. Let's get back to the OP that I responded to:

What I question is, why would you change the sport to give it another main purpose (i.e. self-defense)? Isn't it better to practice self-defense application which already exists? Wouldn't changing the focus of the sport to accomplish two separate goals just water it down, changing it into a hybrid? Sport MA has its rules for a reason - to make the sport more effective, more conducive to fair and safe competition and to provide entertainment. Changing those rules so the sport can be used for non-sport would undermine them and negatively affect the sport.

Some people are non-competitive and have little/no interest in fighting. They practice TMA mainly for the "do," only wanting to follow a path to better physical and spiritual health, self-discipline and the like. Should we change their way to make it more effective for sport? This is the hidden root issue the OP brings up.

For the best development of do, follow the path of do. For effective self-defense, practice the principles of close-in combat against common attacks one may expect. For good sport, follow the rules that enhance it. There is some natural overlap to be sure, but karate cannot be all things at the same time. That's why there are schools that are competition oriented, others that emphasize self-development and others that focus on jutsu self-defense. This is how modern TMA has evolved.

I hope you can now understand my first (much shorter) post after this longer detailed version. "Case closed."

I read a Lot of contradiction, particularly regarding the Do in practicing a martial art.

The Do should be a component part of all we do Even in the rules bound sports arena. Does it change? Yes. But there are hopefully fundamental lines that even the most elite fighters are not willing to cross. Is this line crossed sometimes in competition? Since there have been deaths on the mat, it is very hard to say 'No'. Sometimes the fault of the opponent, sometimes the fault of the competitor themselves.
I had to work on this a bit to find my best in the WT TKD circuit where I made it to the Olympic Trials in '88. When I started on this journey, I would be seething before a match, bordering on out of control by getting myself too 'pumped up'. I regularly got a few warnings and even a few deductions, but more importantly, I was burning out too soon. Eventually, with help from my coach, I learned to moderate my energy (my Do), and it allowed me to sustain me throughout the matches (no fade).

Rules bound events are just that. A specific 'way' the fighters can perform. Since much/most of the true self defense tactics involve evasion or are quite damaging or even carnal, it is not practical so say they should be a component part of a competition. The exception would be some sort of competition that evaluates SD skills on an individual basis, like drilling on a BOB for example.
I think what you are asking is the about the dichotomy of martial art and martial sport. The divide is quite wide whereas the sport side uses only one or two primary components of a martial art. Self-defense in its purest form is not a component part of a martial sport, even when the techniques overlap.
You can think of it as a hammer. They have one original purpose which it to drive nails into a substrate. But they are also used for countless other purposes.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

The thing is, also, that if it isn't drilled on a regular basis you can't really use it in competition OR on 'da thtw33t', as you don't have enough experience of it, and if it's lethal or injurious you can't drill it on a regular basis.

 

[windwalker099]

an interesting clip, skilled usage of training.
What is trained is used...

"A pretty nice showcase of the Kyokushin skillset against somebody unfamiliar with the ruleset.

To be clear this is NOT meant as anything else than a short but impressive display of Kyokushin fighting skills and how debilitating it can be to deal with when you're not used to it."

 

[windwalker099]

"add some grabs as well"

Karate grappling

 

[isshinryuronin]

Karate grappling

The grappling was done by the judo/wrestler guy. It was judo grappling.

These videos clearly show this particular sport format is not applicable to self-defense as no head attacks were done. This is the main attack in a real fight. Good training for body shot practice, though.

 

[windwalker099]

The grappling was done by the judo/wrestler guy. It was judo grappling.

In the clip he mentioned it as karate grappling

These videos clearly show this particular sport format is not applicable to self-defense as no head attacks were done. This is the main attack in a real fight. Good training for body shot practice, though.

The videos were shared to highlight how changes in the rule set influence how people respond.
Thought the karate guy in the first video was very fluid and adaptive.

Another
Interesting style with divisions in it specifically addressing the needs of different formats.