More mma bashing....

[Transk53]

The part he doesn't acknowledge is that every single form of training possible, including his own, has unrealistic elements and important limitations. That doesn't mean you can't learn from them or gain benefits from them. It just means that you have to keep an open mind and figure out which lessons apply to the situation you are training for. MMA has plenty of useful lessons for a martial artist (of whatever style) training for street self-defense. It also has plenty of lessons which are not so applicable for that context. You have to be able to figure out which is which.

Is this more or less the same situation with a TMA as apposed to MMA? IE the skills as it were are more numerous in MMA because of what it is. Figuring out which must be quite difficult from whatever background. Be that a TMA or MMA.

 

[Danny T]

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as MMA sparring orTMA sparring or whatever. As far as martial art training goes sparring is sparring. We are punching, kicking, throwning, taking down, ground fighting or attempting to get off the ground. The focus with in may be different but the tactics are the same. There can be restrictions as to some specifics for a certain focus but if I am being truthful to pressure testing then it is going to be vs anything.
Back in the early 70's while in the military several of us would get to get together and spar. We had people from all walks of martial arts training and we sparred striking, throws, takedowns, ground, weapons and just about everything we could come up with. Was that MMA sparring? No. It was sparring to learn what worked best for the individual in whatever environment we could. Sandy beach area, water, rocky terrain, wet grass, mud, etc.
You are arguing over a name. Sparring is sparring. What is your focus? Spar it and spar it against as many different people you can. If you are not concerned about being taken down; cool, just training striking. But if you are training for SD or cage competition you are fooling yourself if you don't. If your are training just cage fighting an think you are training for SD and don't train to get away or vs weapons again you are fooling yourself.
There is not much out there that is more truthful than getting hit, kicked, taken down, controlled on the ground, being shot or stabbed multiple times.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Is this more or less the same situation with a TMA as apposed to MMA? IE the skills as it were are more numerous in MMA because of what it is. Figuring out which must be quite difficult from whatever background. Be that a TMA or MMA.

Yeah, almost every form of training has some sort of potential benefit (and potential pitfalls). The trick is in a) understanding the context you are preparing for and b) letting go of the ego attachment to whatever art or style of training you are already invested in.

 

[Transk53]

Yeah, almost every form of training has some sort of potential benefit (and potential pitfalls). The trick is in a) understanding the context you are preparing for and b) letting go of the ego attachment to whatever art or style of training you are already invested in.

Yes of course the ego. Which I would venture that we all have issues with at some point or another.

 

[Transk53]

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as MMA sparring orTMA sparring or whatever. As far as martial art training goes sparring is sparring. We are punching, kicking, throwning, taking down, ground fighting or attempting to get off the ground. The focus with in may be different but the tactics are the same. There can be restrictions as to some specifics for a certain focus but if I am being truthful to pressure testing then it is going to be vs anything.
Back in the early 70's while in the military several of us would get to get together and spar. We had people from all walks of martial arts training and we sparred striking, throws, takedowns, ground, weapons and just about everything we could come up with. Was that MMA sparring? No. It was sparring to learn what worked best for the individual in whatever environment we could. Sandy beach area, water, rocky terrain, wet grass, mud, etc.
You are arguing over a name. Sparring is sparring. What is your focus? Spar it and spar it against as many different people you can. If you are not concerned about being taken down; cool, just training striking. But if you are training for SD or cage competition you are fooling yourself if you don't. If your are training just cage fighting an think you are training for SD and don't train to get away or vs weapons again you are fooling yourself.
There is not much out there that is more truthful than getting hit, kicked, taken down, controlled on the ground, being shot or stabbed multiple times.

Who is arguing over a name?

 

[drop bear]

As far as I am concerned there is no such thing as MMA sparring orTMA sparring or whatever. As far as martial art training goes sparring is sparring. We are punching, kicking, throwning, taking down, ground fighting or attempting to get off the ground. The focus with in may be different but the tactics are the same. There can be restrictions as to some specifics for a certain focus but if I am being truthful to pressure testing then it is going to be vs anything.
Back in the early 70's while in the military several of us would get to get together and spar. We had people from all walks of martial arts training and we sparred striking, throws, takedowns, ground, weapons and just about everything we could come up with. Was that MMA sparring? No. It was sparring to learn what worked best for the individual in whatever environment we could. Sandy beach area, water, rocky terrain, wet grass, mud, etc.
You are arguing over a name. Sparring is sparring. What is your focus? Spar it and spar it against as many different people you can. If you are not concerned about being taken down; cool, just training striking. But if you are training for SD or cage competition you are fooling yourself if you don't. If your are training just cage fighting an think you are training for SD and don't train to get away or vs weapons again you are fooling yourself.
There is not much out there that is more truthful than getting hit, kicked, taken down, controlled on the ground, being shot or stabbed multiple times.

Good post.

And yeah it is not so much a mma sparring vs tma sparring thing except in some details.

It is sparring vs that sort of thing we see in that original video.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I think we can all agree that whether it is TMA, MMA or some thing else not ever person is going to want to train the way we train. There are different approaches that can get a person to the same goal that they are trying to achieve. There may be core fundamentals that are practiced but there can certainly be large variety in training methods. We can easily look at any athletic endeavor and see this to be true. Certain fundamentals are taught but then athletes and trainers take their training in various different directions some with fantastic results and some with not so much. Wouldn't it make sense that it is similar in the Martial Sciences?

Where we get to the problem is when one side thinks they have the ultimate answer for everyone's goals. Personally with what I do it is designed for personal protection and yet the methods have allowed practitioner's to enter the mat, ring, cage and win in kickboxing, submission grappling and mma with one even becoming an amature mma champion several times. Yet, because of my age I will never get into the cage (no org would let me) nor because I have always sparred do I need to spar as much as when I was younger. (though of course I still do regularly) People have different goals and needs. I train now for the one or two times left in my life when I may face physical violence. I no longer work in a field that requires me to put my hands on people everyday. So my overall goals are different than say when I was in my twenties. K-man's goals are different than Drop Bears which are still different than Tony Dismukes. We all have similar things we work on but differences and we are all better because of it! I enjoy hearing everyone's opinion here about their training. We can disagree on things and also agree on other things!

Embrace diversity folks!

 

[drop bear]

I don't need to provide evidence. There is no evidence. There is only opinion. One of my training partners is a BJJ blackbelt and highly ranked in several other styles. Three of my Krav guys are ex MMA. One of my Krav guys is ex BJJ. Years ago I used to box. I know how my training stacks up but I'm not making any claims of being better than others, or bagging other styles, and I try to make my training as realistic as possible.

Now you think that MMA sparring is the best way. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I think there are other ways that are equally effective if not more so. That is my opinion and the opinion of others. When you have systems that are not suited to competition and where those practitioners don't compete it is illogical to claim that as a result they are not up to the quality or ability of MMA guys. There is no point in banging on about which is better because we are never going to agree.

To be honest, I don't see anything that interests me in MMA. Each to their own, but I have no doubt as to the effectiveness of a person trained in MMA to defend them self in a street situation. What I do like is some of what I see in BJJ, and I am not too proud to take bits from anywhere to add to my training. Even so, I am not training to stay on the ground.

But we are still coming from two diametrically opposed positions. At 66 I am not interested in competing. I finished with that years ago. Telling me that unless I try out what I teach in the ring my training sucks is certainly less than endearing. The training I provide is not for athletes training to compete against other highly trained fighters at the peak of their ability. I am teaching average girls and guys from the community how to defend themselves in the unlikely situation that they need to physically defend themselves. I do not teach with a set of rules. I teach what is allowable within the law.

What some MMA guys here fail to acknowledge is that many martial artists are not vaguely interested in fighting competitively. That in no way means that they aren't effective in what they do.

As to providing videos of TMA guys holding there own with MMA guys, I'm not going to waste my time. Firstly, we can't even agree on what TMA is. Within my understanding of TMAs, I know of no TMA guys who would be vaguely interested in that scenario as most TMAs don't compete. I'm sure that you will find countless videos on Youtube to prove your point. Forgive me if I don't seem overly impressed.

And that is the difference. If i asked you to show me your method works. You cant. And don't feel you have to.

And why I train with people who can apply the method they endorse. So when they say method a will take you down and prevent you getting up. They can actually do that. If the guy is sixty five and is fifty kilos soaking wet. Then sure that is taken into account.

You just say I may not be able to get this on due to the other guy out muscling me.

here it is not about sport or non sport. Its about pressure testing and evidence based.

 

[drop bear]

Is this more or less the same situation with a TMA as apposed to MMA? IE the skills as it were are more numerous in MMA because of what it is. Figuring out which must be quite difficult from whatever background. Be that a TMA or MMA.

It is about layers. If the other guy can defend you need to get more complex in attack. Or more game specific the attack. Which puts you at more risk. Because the more complex the attack generally the lower percentage the attack is.

 

[K-man]

And that is the difference. If i asked you to show me your method works. You cant. And don't feel you have to.

And why I train with people who can apply the method they endorse. So when they say method a will take you down and prevent you getting up. They can actually do that. If the guy is sixty five and is fifty kilos soaking wet. Then sure that is taken into account.

You just say I may not be able to get this on due to the other guy out muscling me.

here it is not about sport or non sport. Its about pressure testing and evidence based.

And the irony is you can't prove your system works either. This is the internet and you can pull up any video you like but it is never going to prove what you can do.

I train with the same type of people you do. I train with some of Australia's top martial artists but because I don't fight in the ring my system can't be any good. That doesn't pass the logic test.

 

[drop bear]

And the irony is you can't prove your system works either. This is the internet and you can pull up any video you like but it is never going to prove what you can do.

I train with the same type of people you do. I train with some of Australia's top martial artists but because I don't fight in the ring my system can't be any good. That doesn't pass the logic test.

Which top martial artists?

what I can do doesn't matter. I don't teach because there are guys with real verifiable ability who do. That is my point.

What I can do doesn't reflect on the validity of the system I do. That would be like me holding you to account for every student you had.

I prefer to train with guys who do have a proven track record. And who i can see make their theories work.

And in the the internet where i can pull up any video i want. We cant find a video that supports your methods.

 

[drop bear]

because I don't fight in the ring my system can't be any good. That doesn't pass the logic test

No It is because you don't fight under any conditions. It doesn't have to just be in the ring.

 

[Tames D]

Some of us have been trying for a long time to show what we think is as good. Unfortunately some people have no intention of accepting there is an alternative, so I, for one, have given up trying to change the opinion of those who who will not accept that anything else could possible be as good as MMA.

Why is this so important to you? Why does it matter that others don't agree with you? And frankly, I really don't think you have given up trying to change others opinions.

 

[Transk53]

No It is because you don't fight under any conditions. It doesn't have to just be in the ring.

Well in my personal viewpoint, conditions outside of a ring are pretty unconditional don't you think

 

[Hanzou]

Well in my personal viewpoint, conditions outside of a ring are pretty unconditional don't you think

Sometimes martial artists that purport to teach self defense outside the ring fail completely at that purpose.

The author of this article is one such example.

 

[drop bear]

Well in my personal viewpoint, conditions outside of a ring are pretty unconditional don't you think

Absolutely but you can still pressure test a street system. Either by sparring in some manner or by fighting people. Otherwise without some sort of grounding you confuse what should be with what is.

Confirmation bias i think is the term.

 

[Marnetmar]

I think the whole "my art's deadly techniques aren't allowed in the ring" argument is a bit silly. I don't think I've ever heard of a martial art that doesn't, without rules, eventually make use of techniques like, say, eye gouges, one way or another whether it's commonly used inside or outside of the ring except for maybe straight boxing.

 

[Mephisto]

Fouls happen in the ring all the time. But following the logic of many "street" advocates they shouldn't happen because they're not allowed. If a fighter can foul in the ring he can foul outside the ring. Additionally many competitors know how to play dirty and push the rules and hide fouls from the ref or disguise them. The notion that they won't play dirty outside the ring is ludicrous. But I think it is good to take some street oriented and rbsd specific classes to keep your self defense options open, even for a sport practitioner. The difference though is a lot of self defense involved simple dirty tactics that can be learned in a short amount of time, especially if you're already trained. On the other hand if you're a "street" martial artist you've got the dirty tricks but you can't develope the ability to strike or grapple like a competitor in nearly as quick a time as the competitor can learn your tricks (assuming you don't spar or train those skills specifically already).

 

[drop bear]

I think the whole "my art's deadly techniques aren't allowed in the ring" argument is a bit silly. I don't think I've ever heard of a martial art that doesn't, without rules, eventually make use of techniques like, say, eye gouges, one way or another whether it's commonly used inside or outside of the ring except for maybe straight boxing.

I also don't think many people would beat maywhether in a straight eyegouge off. Even if he had done no eyegouge training.

 

[drop bear]

Fouls happen in the ring all the time. But following the logic of many "street" advocates they shouldn't happen because they're not allowed. If a fighter can foul in the ring he can foul outside the ring. Additionally many competitors know how to play dirty and push the rules and hide fouls from the ref or disguise them. The notion that they won't play dirty outside the ring is ludicrous. But I think it is good to take some street oriented and rbsd specific classes to keep your self defense options open, even for a sport practitioner. The difference though is a lot of self defense involved simple dirty tactics that can be learned in a short amount of time, especially if you're already trained. On the other hand if you're a "street" martial artist you've got the dirty tricks but you can't develope the ability to strike or grapple like a competitor in nearly as quick a time as the competitor can learn your tricks (assuming you don't spar or train those skills specifically already).

Yeah. (he says tentatively) you want more of a tactical change. And that can be specific to the outcomes you are trying to achieve. Honestly trading a legitimate technique for a foul is a minor difference.

It is where you create opportunities for yourself and deny his that become the advantage.