Momentum

[Badhabits]

Tongue in cheek question.
Is there anything in martial arts that does NOT have at its root, the aim of handling ( handling being an all inclusive term for producing/avoiding/redirecting/stopping/resisting/manipulating etc) momentum?

 

[drop bear]

Framing mabye?

If i understand how you are using the term.

 

[Badhabits]

Framing mabye?

If i understand how you are using the term.

You see how I'm using the term. A good example too. If you're framing to stop a lock or hold that's not going to end with a throw/takedown, then you're not trying to head off momentum.
It's been bugging me lately, for awhile now I've just been thinking of martial arts in terms of managing momentum. Trying to modify that way of thinking and I'm looking for concrete examples to help. What you said is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

 

[marvin8]

Tongue in cheek question.
Is there anything in martial arts that does NOT have at its root, the aim of handling ( handling being an all inclusive term for producing/avoiding/redirecting/stopping/resisting/manipulating etc) momentum?

Chasing (yang) an opponent rather than drawing them in (creating momentum) can be an example of not using their momentum/force against them. That's what I was trying to explain in my previous posts...

Hai Yang takes more steps, is slower and his timing appears off as he's chasing. Lefevre uses yin-yang causing a collision with his fist which can be turned into a grab for throwing.

In addition, Lefevre uses taiji concepts and skills: lure, listen, control, dissolve, attack as his opponent moves in. However, Yang chases (yang) his opponent that is moving away. Again, my post #11 shows the difference in methods.

 

[Badhabits]

Chasing (yang) an opponent rather than drawing them in can be an example of not using their momentum/force against them. That's what I was trying to explain in my previous posts...

True but not quite specific enough. Almost surely the other guy will be coming at you with some form of momentum to hurt you, so chasing or retreating would both be attempts to preemptively handle momentum. The momentum in this example would be a collision with the fist and/or the throw
In dropbears example using framing to stop a lock or choke not using momentum would qualify. Framing to stop a throw or takedown would not since there's momentum being used for those.

 

[marvin8]

You see how I'm using the term. A good example too. If you're framing to stop a lock or hold that's not going to end with a throw/takedown, then you're not trying to head off momentum.
It's been bugging me lately, for awhile now I've just been thinking of martial arts in terms of managing momentum. Trying to modify that way of thinking and I'm looking for concrete examples to help. What you said is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

Sometimes you may want to stop an opponent's momentum, getting them stuck in a position, in order to attack them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The momentum in this example would be a collision with the fist and/or the throw

- In striking art, you want head on collision.
- In throw art, you want rear end collision.

Both are A + B > A.

Example of head on collision - You come; I stop you.



Example of rear end collision - You come; I let you come, and lead you into the emptiness.

 

[windwalker099]

t's been bugging me lately, for awhile now I've just been thinking of martial arts in terms of managing momentum. Trying to modify that way of thinking and I'm looking for concrete examples to help. What you said is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

What kind of examples are you looking for ?


In CMA it's refered to as 化劲 (huà jìn).
transforming force or dissolving momentum

Some styles specialize in this..

"Traditional martial arts training method for Huajin: Using a half-ball to demonstrate the advantages of Xingyiquan's active shoulder in actual combat"

 

[isshinryuronin]

Is there anything in martial arts that does NOT have at its root, the aim of handling...momentum?
I've just been thinking of martial arts in terms of managing momentum.

I prefer not to think about it that way, "handling/managing momentum," in most situations (except for, as you said, "stopping" it). To me it's a secondary or even tertiary factor. It is an element of an attack (like speed, angle or power, or a combination of these), not the attack (the primary factor) itself. So, I don't think about it as a separate thing to concern myself with. I've got enough to deal with in a fight. I may step off-line, but this isn't to avoid momentum, but to avoid having to do a hard block and to open my angles of attack.

Momentum is something that is built up during an attack over a span of time and distance. This is something, therefor, you have to wait for to "receive" it, perhaps as in aikido. To me, in my karate view, this is a defensive mindset. In close self-defense combat there is not time/distance to build momentum; it is usually a non-factor as I short-circuit a movement before this happens. Most of the time I simply concern myself with the opponent's attack and not it's various specifics. I'm probably not adequately explaining myself, but that's the way I see it.

Momentum is a way of building power in an attack. I don't rely on this as I fight close-in and depend on chinkuchi for my power. Linear momentum is hard to stop and can leave you out of position at the end. Non-linear momentum can be effectively used to maintain power during a circular change of angle in the attack (perhaps as in doing two consecutive attacks or a block and attack, with the same hand). I use momentum in this sense to keep my action fluid.

Longer range powerful attacks and attacks with club or staff do provide opportunity to utilize the opponent's momentum as he has time to build it up and overcommit and you have more time to prepare.

 

[drop bear]

You see how I'm using the term. A good example too. If you're framing to stop a lock or hold that's not going to end with a throw/takedown, then you're not trying to head off momentum.
It's been bugging me lately, for awhile now I've just been thinking of martial arts in terms of managing momentum. Trying to modify that way of thinking and I'm looking for concrete examples to help. What you said is the kind of thing I'm looking for.

If that is where you are headed. Then possibly also mechanical advantage. Which is possibly the meta concept of framing. Which would kind of be different but supplementary to momentum.

So momentum is the movement. Posture is the mechanical advantage.

 

[marvin8]

True but not quite specific enough. Almost surely the other guy will be coming at you with some form of momentum to hurt you, so chasing or retreating would both be attempts to preemptively handle momentum. The momentum in this example would be a collision with the fist and/or the throw.

Only chasing an opponent then striking them is not using their momentum against them. Also, the chasee can use your chasing momentum against you.

In dropbears example using framing to stop a lock or choke not using momentum would qualify. Framing to stop a throw or takedown would not since there's momentum being used for those.

I'm not understanding the benefit of your "aim not to handle momentum."

Here is an article on the benefits of "Leading Momentum" from the blog you linked.

“Leading” momentum – how realistic is it?

www.wayofleastresistance.net