Originally posted by loki09789
The confusion seems to be because you aren't reading the post as it was written.
My point was the influence of western martial arts on the evolution of Balitawak, not the earliest history of western/eastern boxing. The lack of popularity is evident in how the boxing/western arts are trivialized in these discussions, not necessarily open hostility or rejection. The idea was that the western arts tend to be neglected when it comes to 'going back to the roots' discussions. I don't intend to say that there are any secrets of influences on MA or Balitawak, just that if the idea of higher level artists is to explore the roots of an art - or at least some of it's influences - then include the western arts. Sometimes it feels like if it isn't an eastern art, it ain't Sh*&.
How many of us have studied western fencing, or taken a boxing or wrestling class, and see how it fits. Even hockey, football, soccer... can teach us something about strategy and coordinated attack and defense, if we let it fit into our idea of adaptability. The single and double leg take down or a basic hip check can be just as good as any FMA or trad art technique for real fighting. Generals during WWII attributed their successes on the battlefield to the sport of football because it taught basic winning spirit and follow through in a team effort.
As far as the older influences on boxing, it was more than palm up or palm down and foot work. It was to concept of light vs. heavy. The roots of modern western boxing stem back to armored combatants with shield and sword (picture the old bare knuckle pictures of the industrial age stuff and you will see the similiarity), thus the lack of dynamic footwork and body movement compared to PI styles. The roots of PI or eastern boxing styles (chinese, mongolian, PI, Thai...) tend to be based on a light or no armor weapon history, thus the lightning footwork and slipperiness of the body motion.
In general, and I know there are exceptions, the armor of the western cultures was made to protect the fighter against swords and blunt attacks as it's first job. Thus, it is heavier and restricts some freedom of motion. But, the armor of most eastern cultures was designed to protect the fighter against arrows and missile attacks primarily. This allowed for more dynamic movement in comparison to the west.
Based on these roots, the influences on boxing or fighting arts is more than hand position or footwork, it comes down to strategic mindset of the art and how the historical evolution either fits/adapts or doesn't. Whoever did it, what ever the point in evolution you choose to pick, my point is it is all good if you can see the connections and the commonalities. Then, find the ones that fit what you are doing to accomplish your goals.
Paul Martin
Paul,
I am not a golden glove. Yet I have trained with Boxers and Wrestlers and fencers. I have played with live heavy blades and lighter blades, and enjoy the differences.
As to popularity, that is your opinion. Go search out some stuff that Gou Ronin and I discusses years ago about boxing. I agree that boxing is being tested everytime you get into the ring. Manong Ted Buot tests you every time you pick up the stick in a lesson with him.
I have played group sports including paint ball, tactics about using pinch points to have one or two people hold off a large force. To be able to use speed and stealth of one person to infiltrate the enemy line. And also the mind set that if
I do this I will be out, yet the team has a much better chance of success. The idea of something greater than yourself.
As to Armor, the full body heavy armor in the
West did not stick around for an extended period. Maybe just maybe the
East through the Spanish/Italians/Portuguese and French decided that speed and agility were better, and once you got the turtle on his back or held you could thrust and still kill the armored person. Hence the use of padded or leather armor and lighter blades. Now who influenced who? Was it the East to the West? Could it have been both ways? OR was it West to East?
I still do not see your point about popularity. You make the innuendo and Tim comes out states that I and others do not have an open mind. Yet, I keep replying and referencing older posts, that state otherwise. You lead was like that everyone was going to disagree with you and you had some superior information. When it seems that almost everyone agrees that there was influence in both directions, and understanding these things is good. You say we ignore the Boxing portion, then go create a boxing thread and see if you can some responses and see if it is ignored.
Like I asked Tim for peace, and to stop assuming I am assuming somethign about him. I will ask you, and extended it to everyone else as well, please do not assume about me and I will not assume back. Do not put words into my mouth, I can and will state my mind as I see it or know it. Yet, I realize that Listening is the second half and most important half to Conversation and Dialogue as opposed to Monolgue.
What I have found through my life is the following:
When people argue from a point of weakness, they yell and ignore the other person.
When people make an insult this the insult they hate the most to be called.
When people make an innuedo, they are trying to cover their own short comings or failings.
Now as I and most of those that have been around for length of time online have posted, that you cannot see or feel the tone, or body language therefore it is hard to read text only. So, to avoid issue or problems I do not assume anything from a single post. If I see a series of posts, then I come out and ask. Not thinned skinned, just trying to clear up something I do not understand.
I apologize if I have misunderstood you. This is how I am reading it. You have a point to be made, and you want disagreement.
On my Phone Call with Panung Guro Tom Bolden, I believe he wanted me to call him to correct somethings I had said on line. Other then Toboada's Balintawak, which I thougt you or Curren had used first, I could be wrong, to be corrected to Balintawak Cuentada Escrima. As the Web Site states Balintawak Escrima Cuentada, I will make the asssumption that this was the intent by Mr. Bolden. As to the rest of the discussion, Maybe you guy should call him yourself and see what he had to say about influences. The reason I brign this up, and that Tom and I talked and listened to each other. We had a dialogue and conversation.
I am trying here, to understand why you say it is unpopular? I know many of us have investigated fencing and/or wrestling and/or boxing. I have no problems investigating roots. Heck I have been known to pick up a rock and use it as a tool as well. Talk about roots
