MMA vs TMA

[James Kovacich]

Jame you did not read my post. I was not addressing her. I specifically said, MJS I know your train bjj, this is for those that don't..

Why did you skip that? Lastly I am not that little troll Hanzou. I am not attacking TMA. I merely stated that they need to start realistically addressing the basic ground positions so that its practitioners don't end up like fish out of water should they happen to fall down in a street altercation. I never once said they needed to add the entirety of bjj to the tma..

I am not assuming that all ranges are not addressed. You pointed out UFC 1. Guess what that proved that karate and tkd don't address the ground range. In my quest to find a good martial art to join since my mma gym died, I have visited just about every quality TMA in my area, and for a fact none of them did any ground survival. Sorry Your dojo may address it, but it is in the minority.

Yes some Maist do cross train, but a hell of a lot of them don't. That is why it needs to be addressed in there main class. Not all people have the luxury of training in more then one place.

Your right I did miss that and miss interpeted your words.

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[Hanzou]

Going to the ground in a street fight/90% of all fights go to the ground. Sorry, but that is a marketing claim by the Gracies, and their work with various LE agencies. There is a time and place for everything, and while forming a circle in Brazil, with 2 people in the middle, while everyone else stands around watching...well, the odds of that happening in the US, are pretty slim. Now, I'm not saying I hate BJJ. Many of my friends train it on a regular basis and I've done my share of it as well, however, when the poop is hitting the fan, should I find myself on the ground, I'm going to do whatever I can, to get back to a standing position. I'm not going to continue to roll around, looking for a sub. That's foolish IMO.

This is a common misconception. Like Judo, Bjj teaches you have to take opponents to the ground and finish them once they get there. It also teaches you how to control the situation should you ever end up on the ground. Often times, all it takes is one solid takedown or throw, and the fights done, because while every fight doesn't go to the ground, almost every fight I've seen wound up in a clinching situation. One good Osoto Gari or Hip throw on the concrete, and the guy's going to be in a world of pain.

What a lot of people seem to misunderstand is that Bjj teaches you how to fight while on your back. That's one of the weakest positions, and for Bjj artists it's one of their strongest. Bjj teaches you how to lock, sweep, or completely reverse someone on top of you while on your back. That is invaluable for self defense, and most arts DON'T teach it.

 

[ballen0351]

This is a common misconception. Like Judo, Bjj teaches you have to take opponents to the ground and finish them once they get there. It also teaches you how to control the situation should you ever end up on the ground. Often times, all it takes is one solid takedown or throw, and the fights done, because while every fight doesn't go to the ground, almost every fight I've seen wound up in a clinching situation. One good Osoto Gari or Hip throw on the concrete, and the guy's going to be in a world of pain.

What a lot of people seem to misunderstand is that Bjj teaches you how to fight while on your back. That's one of the weakest positions, and for Bjj artists it's one of their strongest. Bjj teaches you how to lock, sweep, or completely reverse someone on top of you while on your back. That is invaluable for self defense, and most arts DON'T teach it.

Except most fights you should not go to the ground even if you can fight on the ground. Its just not smart.

 

[Kframe]

Your right I did miss that and miss interpeted your words.

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That's ok, I some times are not the clearest of typists with my intentions. No harm no foul.

Basically all im saying is, most people only have time for one school. That school should dedicate some time each class to basic position escapes and sub defense. That's the gist of my last two posts.

 

[MJS]

MJS I know you say youll do what ever it takes to get back to your feet. I know you train bjj some times, but this for those that don't. You don't really know how to get back to your feet if your entangled with someone, till you actually grapple with someone.

Im not advocating that TMA go out and adopt a full white to black ground system but they should start adding some to there training. Not the full curriculum but say a set of teachings for the various positions. Mount/sidemount/halfguard/guard/back. Have a beginner a intermediate and a advanced curriculum. It needs to be paired down. GJJ is some where north of 600+ techs. I say just focus on defending the main subs, and how to escape each of the positions.

I fully support tma, but I hear it often how they will do what ever it takes to get back to your feet. If you don't know the proper way to trap and roll from mount or escape the other positions, your going to waste a lot of precious energy flailing futilely trying, while not accomplishing anything.

Trust me, before I had any training, I was in a few fights. I know how scary it is to be on the bottom of mount, trying desperately to escape and not getting anything done. Had I known then, the simple trap and roll, id have beat his ****. TMA often understate just how scary the ground really is.

Oh I agree with you on this. I remember the first time I rolled. I was literally a fish out of water. Couldn't escape anything. Tried to use my arms to push and make some distance...sure, and I got arm locked. LOL! Made the mistake of turning. RNC. LOL!

I remember when I first joined this forum. I took so much crap from the pure Kenpo guys, because I was saying that Kenpo lacked grappling/ground work. I was told that I just didn't understand Kenpo. Umm...sure, ok...I never claimed to be a Kenpo GM or that my Kenpo was the best on the block, but looking around, I never saw anything useful in Kenpo that could be used on the ground against someone who really knew how to fight on the ground.

My intentions were never to drive someone away from Kenpo and to the nearest BJJ school, but instead to cross train. Of course, I was met with the "Well, how can someone train more than 1 art and really devote time" line. I call BS on that and chalked it up as an excuse. No, my point was simple: Learn the basics...that's all. If you want to pursue BJJ, then great, but at the least, learn how to escape the basic positions, how to get back to your feet, maybe some simple submissions.

For the record....I do not claim to be affiliated with any BJJ gym currently. I don't hold any rank in BJJ although that is something that I would like to look into in the future. My current ground training consists of the 'back yard/garage' workouts, with folks that do train in a grappling art, on a regular basis.

 

[MJS]

This is a common misconception. Like Judo, Bjj teaches you have to take opponents to the ground and finish them once they get there. It also teaches you how to control the situation should you ever end up on the ground. Often times, all it takes is one solid takedown or throw, and the fights done, because while every fight doesn't go to the ground, almost every fight I've seen wound up in a clinching situation. One good Osoto Gari or Hip throw on the concrete, and the guy's going to be in a world of pain.

I don't disagree with you. The guy who I first started doing some BJJ with, also had a Judo background, and we would often work various throws, so yes, I agree that when done correctly, the guy on the receiving end will be in a world of pain. IMO, I think one of the misconceptions, is the fact that in the early UFC days, we rarely saw Royce do anything other than clinch, pull guard and do his thing. If there are guys adding in throws now, I don't know, mainly due to the fact that I no longer buy the fights on PPV. I am going to a MMA fight here in CT in Nov of this year. I'm looking forward to it! I'll report back if I see these guys doing throws.

My point was simply that each situation should be assessed accordingly. A packed nightclub might not be the best place to start rolling, but that's just my opinion.

What a lot of people seem to misunderstand is that Bjj teaches you how to fight while on your back. That's one of the weakest positions, and for Bjj artists it's one of their strongest. Bjj teaches you how to lock, sweep, or completely reverse someone on top of you while on your back. That is invaluable for self defense, and most arts DON'T teach it.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you here. I've done my share of training, so I think you may be preaching to the choir here, but in any case, as I've said countless times, I feel that having even a small background in a grappling art, is key, if one is really serious about rounding out your self defense base. My point was simply that to intentionally take someone down and look for a lock/sub, etc, if you don't have to, might be a bit foolish. If someone is good enough in BJJ, they should also understand how to avoid going to the ground, should they get into a clinch, as well as apply some of their techs. while standing, though slight adjustments might need to be made.

 

[Dinkydoo]

This is a common misconception. Like Judo, Bjj teaches you have to take opponents to the ground and finish them once they get there.

That can't be right.... In BJJ are you really taught that you HAVE to take opponents to ground? Surely that's a typo.

As for other comments by MJS and KFrame, I agree. TMA clubs should at least offer seminars on 'street fighting' that involves some - if relatively unsophisticated - ground work. A club I used to train with occasionally offered such seminars and although I only attended one for ~ 4 hours, I'm much more confident that I can get back up to my feet should an unskilled attacker manage to take me down. Yea, if a BJJ guy takes me down, I'm screwed, but the chances of that happening in a SD situation are minimal enough for me not want to immediately go out and join a BJJ gym.

 

[Hanzou]

Except most fights you should not go to the ground even if you can fight on the ground. Its just not smart.

Not necessarily. Ground fighting neutralizes a lot of advantages an opponent has over you. If they don't know how to use leverage, a much weaker person can overcome a much stronger person.

 

[MJS]

Not necessarily. Ground fighting neutralizes a lot of advantages an opponent has over you. If they don't know how to use leverage, a much weaker person can overcome a much stronger person.

Ok, question for you. Since it seems like you're very pro ground, let me ask you: in your opinion, are there any situations in which you personally, would not go to the ground?

 

[Tames D]

Not necessarily. Ground fighting neutralizes a lot of advantages an opponent has over you. If they don't know how to use leverage, a much weaker person can overcome a much stronger person.

This is very true, until the guys friends jump in and start kicking you.

 

[Steve]

This is very true, until the guys friends jump in and start kicking you.

Or your friends jump in and start kicking him...


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[Hanzou]

Ok, question for you. Since it seems like you're very pro ground, let me ask you: in your opinion, are there any situations in which you personally, would not go to the ground?

I'm sure there are, but I've seen a lot of altercations that end up on the ground naturally, or two guys wrestling for control/takedown. Being able to grapple and fight from any position is a stupidly big advantage in a fight.

 

[K-man]

This is very true, until the guys friends jump in and start kicking you.

I remember my KM instructor, who is a LEO, telling us not to stay on the ground as when Joe Public comes on the scene and sees you winning the contest he belts you around the ears as he assumes the guy you are restraining is the innocent party. Given the option you won't find me on the ground but if I am it will be something other than locks and holds I will be applying, and I won't be staying down longer than I need.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

That can't be right.... In BJJ are you really taught that you HAVE to take opponents to ground? Surely that's a typo.

As for other comments by MJS and KFrame, I agree. TMA clubs should at least offer seminars on 'street fighting' that involves some - if relatively unsophisticated - ground work. A club I used to train with occasionally offered such seminars and although I only attended one for ~ 4 hours, I'm much more confident that I can get back up to my feet should an unskilled attacker manage to take me down. Yea, if a BJJ guy takes me down, I'm screwed, but the chances of that happening in a SD situation are minimal enough for me not want to immediately go out and join a BJJ gym.

Though you probably won't have to worry about a Bjj person, you should be concerned about wrestlers, UFC wannabes, and ex football players. All of those groups are fully capable of taking you down, slamming you down, and beating the crap out of you. There's also a good chance that they'll be stronger than you as well.

 

[ballen0351]

Not necessarily. Ground fighting neutralizes a lot of advantages an opponent has over you. If they don't know how to use leverage, a much weaker person can overcome a much stronger person.

Here's the thing anyone over the age of 25 shouldn't be getting into random fights. I have not even been close to getting into a fight since I got out of the USMC. Other then work but most people dont have a job like mine.

So if you find yourself needing to actually defend yourself for real from becoming victim of violence Im not talking about some random bar fight but real violence. Going to the ground makes it impossible to run away, makes it impossible to defend against more then one attacker, makes it impossible to keep up with your family who I also hope you have told to run. While you laying on the ground going for this sub or that choke, you have lost all mobility and ability to assess your surroundings and react to new threats.
But
Even in my young and dumb days in the military where a good fight was a weekly occurrence it always involved Lots of Alcohol, and one of my friends starting a fight with some other guy and his friends. It usually occurred in a bar or street with lots of other drunk and rowdy spectators. None of that lends itself well to getting on the ground.

Bjj has its place should you find your self on the ground, but going there in purpose is just not smart. Sure if its one on one and there are no outside factors then go for it. Just normally doesnt happen that way.

 

[ballen0351]

Though you probably won't have to worry about a Bjj person, you should be concerned about wrestlers, UFC wannabes, and ex football players. All of those groups are fully capable of taking you down, slamming you down, and beating the crap out of you. There's also a good chance that they'll be stronger than you as well.

Ive responded to 1000's of bar fights it almost NEVER happens that way in real life. Also just because someone wrestled in high school or played high school ball or watched some UFC on you tube = a good chance they are stronger then you? Sounds like something you read in a Gracie sales brochure right below 90% of fights go to the ground

 

[Hanzou]

Ive responded to 1000's of bar fights it almost NEVER happens that way in real life. Also just because someone wrestled in high school or played high school ball or watched some UFC on you tube = a good chance they are stronger then you? Sounds like something you read in a Gracie sales brochure right below 90% of fights go to the ground

So you're saying that you've never seen a fight where one person is on top of another punching him (or her) in the face or head over and over again? You've never seen a fight where one guy slammed the other to the floor or into an object? You've never seen a fight where two people are wrestling for control?

 

[ballen0351]

So you're saying that you've never seen a fight where one person is on top of another punching him (or her) in the face or head over and over again? You've never seen a fight where one guy slammed the other to the floor or into an object? You've never seen a fight where two people are wrestling for control?

Not what I said I said it almost never. There is no 100% when it cones to fighting and violence. Of course some fights go to the ground. Its just not how "most" fights go.

 

[Kframe]

You know what we need. We as a community on martial talk, need to put money together and invite special guests in. Say A few really top notch Army and Marine H2H instructors and some Top notch Federal trainers and LEO trainers and the various Civil guys that make the rounds. Get them to come on here and do a Q&A.

 

[K-man]

You know what we need. We as a community on martial talk, need to put money together and invite special guests in. Say A few really top notch Army and Marine H2H instructors and some Top notch Federal trainers and LEO trainers and the various Civil guys that make the rounds. Get them to come on here and do a Q&A.

No real need for that. Many of us have trained or are training already with those people. We know what they say and what they teach. That information is reinforced over and over throughout this forum. Just that occasionally people come along with a point to prove that is contra to what everyone else is saying. Spending money to get someone to point out they are wrong won't prove much. They will move along to another forum and make the same claims there.
:asian: